A year after it was discovered that Donald Trump had taken hundreds of classified documents with him when he left the White House, a dozen misplaced classified documents were discovered that were under the responsibility of Biden and later Pence.
There is a HUGE difference between these situations, in that Trump had been alerted to the fact that he had taken classified documents with him, but he ignored and defied the National Archives for many months, until the FBI finally showed up at Mar-a-lago to recover them.
Then a dozen or so documents were discovered that had been the responsibility of Biden and now another set was discovered in Pence's control.
The difference between Biden's and Pence's situations and Trump is first in the sheer numbers of documents that Trump took (in the hundreds) and that Biden and Pence had (about a dozen documents each). Also (2) Biden and Pence's own people discovered the documents and immediately returned them; whereas Trump refused for months to return then until the FBI showed up at his door.
@baba With the breaking news headline about the 10 classified documents found in one of POTUS Biden's office ... and how that will be used by the media and GQP our poor Eagle is indeed needing to build a nest to shelter and procreate and hatch a better result for our Democracy ... as evidenced by the different ways these documents and their retrieval was handled and responded to. So I think this is a hit for you dear Baba!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2023/jan/12/joe-biden-classified-documents-politics-latest
I have the sneaking feeling that this "finding of documents in Joe Biden's places from his Obama years etc... may very well have been planted... so that it lessens the severity and judgement against TFG... it will be very interesting to hear what Merrick Garland has to say about all of it when he makes his speech today!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2023/jan/12/joe-biden-classified-documents-politics-latest
I have the sneaking feeling that this "finding of documents in Joe Biden's places from his Obama years etc... may very well have been planted... so that it lessens the severity and judgement against TFG... it will be very interesting to hear what Merrick Garland has to say about all of it when he makes his speech today!
Okay so this is funny but I was just about to come here and say this too. Like there is something questionable about the timing and the nature of this. Highly questionable.
The thing is with the National Archives being involved there will easily be able to discover the when and how and why and stuff of the information.
But yeah, its shady. I don't entirely believe it is what it first appears.
@herukane What's interesting to me is that for the first small group of documents, one of the articles I read said that NARA didn't even know the docs were missing. NARA is one of the most secure and detailed recordkeeping institutions in the country. I find it hard to believe that those documents just somehow came up missing without having been noted in their system. It just doesn't smell right to me.
@journeywithme2 That thought has crossed my mind more than once. Something definitely feels off.
Let's look at a comparison between the Trump classified documents scandal and Biden's:
WAPO provided a good summary of the differences in a weekly email called the Five Minute Fix. I don't know if it is available online. The gist:
In November, the president’s personal lawyers found the documents in a locked closet in Biden’s former office at the Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement, a think tank in downtown Washington. There were around 10 of them bearing classified markings, meaning they had clearly visible stamps or other indicators showing they are considered sensitive.
The White House responded quickly and immediately gave the documents to the National Archives the same day they were found.
This is quite different from the Trump classified documents scandal.
First of all, Biden had ten documents. Trump had hundreds. We don't yet know how top secret Biden's were. But we know Trump's had more of the highest level of secret than the total number of Biden's documents. The highest level, labeled Top Secret, could damage national security, if put into the wrong hands.
Second, once the missing documents were discovered, the National Archives repeatedly notified Trump and he defied them, resisting their attempts to retrieve them. He eventually returned some, but not all, of the documents. The FBI had to show up and seize them to get them all back. (And I doubt that they did get them all back).
In Biden's case, Biden's lawyers were the ones who discovered them on Nov 1, and they immediately returned them. The GOP accused them of knowing in advance of Nov 1 that they had them, but so far there is no evidence of that.
The Five Minute Fix is written up here: https://www-staging.washingtonpost.com/newsletters/the-5-minute-fix/
On the one hand this takes wind out of the House Qpublucans sails because to try and get rid of trumps SC (which they can’t anyway) they’d also have to shut down Bidens.
im seeing a lot on the internet going down a conspiracy path and saying these were planted. Like COVID origins I am refusing to go down that path until there’s some compelling proof. The simpler explanations being more likely, our Republican counterparts have landed under investigation for their inability to “conspiracy quietly”. If these had spent some time in Marjorie three toes’ basement I’d be more suspect.
I just read that NARA did not know that the documents found in Biden’s office were missing. My thoughts are that the agency obviously has a “keeping track of records’ problem. Maybe they need a new system and more competent people. Also, as for making copies I would think that there should be records of every copy made and only the agency releasing the document is allowed to make a copy. How about the idea that NARA or the document releasing agency notify a person when a document isn’t returned in a timely manner. I think there needs to be some improvements to this record keeping system.
@lenor I agree. There is obviously much room for improvement in keeping track of classified White House documents.
I initially thought along the same lines, that this could have been a plant. After learning of more documents in Biden's home, I no longer think that. I think it was an honest oversight on the part of whomever packed Biden's office and moved him out. I also believe that every President probably has or had some questionable documents in their possession, whether they meant to remove them or not.
I'm impressed with the integrity of Biden's lawyers who reacted correctly, immediately, and with Merrick Garland, whom I trust to perform his job correctly and to be above reproach.
@dannyboy it's also helpful that Merrick Garland appointed a special counsel to investigate the Biden files,some also found in his garage in his Delaware home.
Robert Hur was a Trump appointed US Attorney for the District of Maryland.
Yes, there are major differences in Trump having them and how he responded and Biden having them and how he responded.
That being said ? The investigations have to have the appearance of fair and equitable investigations outside of prejudicial political scope .
@tgraf66 Congress has not increased NARA's budget in three decades. Expenses rose, but their budget didn't. NARA doesn't have the resources.
Someone did not do their job.
Likely a Biden staffer who was tasked with returning them and they failed to do so. Somebody dropped the ball but will likely own up to it. Might even have even happened during the early part of Covid when everyone went remote all of a sudden. They might have been put away quickly and things became remote for so long they were forgotten.
I think light will be shed in the not too distant future. Whatever the reason, this was a BIG misstep.
Hopefully in the future, the National Archives will be on top of released documents. You know, be on it like a librarian on an overdue library book, because we know how on top of it our local librarians are right? Maybe librarians should take care of everything related to National Archives.
Wait!!!! Isn't that what an archivist does? This scandal now is tainting the reputation of archivists! They are some of the most meticulous people around. You DON"T even TOUCH documents without gloves right?
Maybe librarians or archivists should be on staff for all people with Top Secret clearance for the handling documents. Or "on loan".
One might infer that the National Archive equivalent of the Dewy Decimal system is lacking. Perhaps they are using the equivalent of Southwest Airlines Software to track archives like Southwest tracks their flight crews??
At the very least, the person who checks out a National Archive document should sign away the right to their first born if a document isn't returned on time right?. OR there should be loan shark type overdue fees with interest compounded daily.
@lovendures You’re right about librarians, says this retired librarian. Those overdue notices went out like clockwork. And if there was no response to an overdue notice, you were definitely getting a call to find out why that book was not returned. A missing book sent us on a hunt that could last for hours not ever giving up until it was found. And don’t ever just throw a book away, when it could be recycled, repurposed or reused. If I wasn’t so old I’d apply for a job at NARA and get that system working the right way.
I do not know if this is of interest. I worked as a contractor for the federal government for over ten years. While I did not handle classified documents, I was still required to take an annual course on the requirements for handling and storing classified documents.
As I recall, the storage of classified documents must be under two locked devices, for example: a locked file cabinet within a locked office. If the employee leaves his/her office (even to go to the rest room), the documents must be secured under both locks. If the documents are taken to another meeting, I believe the meeting needs to be held in a SKIF (secured room).
Following is info I just found on a federal government site: https://www.archives.gov/isoo/faqs
*****************
Question: Are there any circumstances when I might be allowed to take classified documents home with me?
Answer: No. Classified material must be safeguarded in accordance with the requirements in E.O. 13526, Part 4, Safeguarding; and 32 CFR 2001, Subpart E, Safeguarding.
You must not remove classified material from official premises except to conduct official meetings or conferences, and the material must be returned to safe storage facilities immediately upon the conclusion of the meeting or conference. Residences are not considered official premises, and you must not remove classified material for reasons of personal convenience or keep it overnight in personal custody.
Question: Who should be the SAO for an agency?
Answer: SAO is a senior official at the Assistant Secretary level or its equivalent who has direct responsibility for ensuring the department or agency efficiently and appropriately complies with all applicable records management statutes, regulations, NARA policy, and the requirements of the Directive.
The SAO must be located within the organization so as to make adjustments to agency practices, personnel, and funding as may be necessary to ensure compliance and support the business needs of the department or agency. A partial list of some current SAO job titles includes:
Mike Pence had classified documents which were just found now too.
Let's change the title of this thread to be more "inclusive".
I bet every V.P. and President isevery former President and Vice President is going oh $#!t!!! They're wondering if there is a classified document in their possession. Could one be in the attic with old family photos? In the cellar with the root vegetables? Under the hay in a barn? Under the passenger seat of car sold in 2014?
I wonder what that old rascal Carter has tucked away?
DocumentGate!!!!
This is absolutely Ridiculous!
For any staff member who was supposed to make sure ANY classified documents where handled correctly and didn't do their job, there should be MAJOR consequences! This can not be acceptable. There needs to be MAJOR repercussions and an overhaul. I am not talking about a president/V.P. who intentionally kept them as that is a whole other issue of concern. I am talking ones that are staff negligence.
Unacceptable !!
https://www.axios.com/2023/01/24/mike-pence-classified-documents
@lovendures I absolutely agree on this. @PamP did say earlier in this thread that the NARA budget had been cut, but there's genuinely no excuse for this. On the other hand, for those MAGATs who were going to try to say "well Biden did it, too!" (and were already doing that), this kind of takes the wind out of their sails, so, you know...silver lining and all. 😄