wow, have yet to fully read this conversation (this also totally applies to my alien RV) but I am busy now ... But I am studying Ken Wilber's integral philosophy which so far gives me the greatest comfort in how to integrate the "ice-age" thinking of a large population... check it out, it keeps me sane right now and tells me we do have an evolutionary advantage (yet how to get the social and economic upper-hand?)
Tee,
sounds interesting, I will check it out
Love this discussion.
BTW, Zoron et al - we have me, Laura F, and Lauri H - so I'm glad Lauri H picked up on Zoron's thanks, since they were not meant for me!
I have a big background in brain/neuro issues and research, partly as an interested/curious observer. I'm familiar with the studies you all have mentioned.
Yes, we know that those on the more conservative/fascist/authoritarian end of the spectrum have a slightly enlarged right side amygdala. Interestingly, psychopaths tend to have smaller amygdalas that are also not as well connected to other brain centers, especially the pre-frontal cortex. (I highly recommend reading Jon Ronson's book "the Psychopath Test" - very enlightening stuff). Psychopaths feel no empathy and no fear, where people with enlarged amygdala are more fearful. One has to wonder if it was the big-amygdala humans who decided to invent religion, and then the psychopaths figured out early on how to use it to their own, evolutionary advantage. And also of note is that the majority of psychopaths are male, but enlarged amygdalas appear to be more evenly distributed among cisgender humans.
YES, epigenetics play a role in a lot of this, in addition to prenatal stress and childhood trauma. In fact, trauma can cause epigenetic changes for 3-4 generations. I did the Nat Geo 2.0 test also. No Denisovan, but 2% Neanderthal. My understanding is that the Denisovans went from Africa across Mongolia and into Siberia, so yes, they would have endured Ice Age conditions a lot longer than many other parts of the Earth. So would the epigenetic stresses be passed down tens of thousands of years? I don't think so, BUT a phsyiological mutation that causes the development of a fetal amygdala that is either too big or too small probably is.
I honestly don't know what we as a species could do to mitigate and contain the never-ending stresses and damage caused by both of these sets of humans. I'm sick to death of the cycles of violence that stretch back thousands of years, of the psychopaths who rise to power with the support of the fearful-authoritarian-fascist-enlarged amygdala humans. Neither group is able to be reasoned with. Both groups share a kind of egotism. Whenever they join forces, it's Hell on Earth for the rest of us.
hi LAURA F.
Ok, this is interesting. Today, firmly in my scientist Mode, I am thinking of the scientific and social issues, but in a way connected to the spiritual issues. So:
Has any work been done on the population distribution of the numbers of asocial, anti-social. and psychopathic element of the population, and the distribution of those with the "Ice-Age gene" inheritance. Also the "Induced" Psychopathic and sociopath element, (brain damage, child abuse, PTSD etc). Plus the spectrum issue. (in any population, some are marginal, and some are full blown serial killers!). I ask this critical question, as if they are a large section of the population, and are gaining in numbers, = very bad!. if not, if they are diminishing in numbers, then there is hope. Also, gene tech is advancing. In the same way that fetuses can have gene mods, for various inherited traits, (very experimental at the moment) there might be a genetic treatment. (probably very distant.)
So, bluntly, to be practical, I am absolutely fed up living in a human society where a large portion of the population can and do behave like sicko killer primates. They use force and fear to dominate, and make life awful for the rest of us. As a practical issue of survival of our civilisation, we are in a critical situation now. I am wondering if there is a reasonably reliable test system that can weed these people out, from things like the studies that have been done on things like response awareness, brain wiring, etc, and other indicators of Psychopathy and Ice age behavior. Something non-invasive, that can be used "At a distance". Tech to the rescue?. Body language is a great indicator, over time. Just thinking. In the meantime, how many "Cave-Freaks" live near you? LOL!
I went through the stages of grief when it came to the right wing globally and the damage they are doing over a period of years. I'm sick and tired too, worn down, angry, vengeful and all sorts of other things. I work with a far right family, they creep me out, especially their grandson who's a little younger than me. His behavior is horrific and his grandparents dote on him, seeing no wrong. They make fun of climate change believers, think the tax cuts are wonderful and that Obama raised the deficit more than anyone. And no trying to fact check them does no good, its fake news if it doesn't fit their biases. I also have to deal with extended family on every side, even my married side that are right wing lunatics. I could go on forever, I am thoroughly sick of these people myself, but also not particularly impressed with more normal people in my life either, who prefer to hide from dark realities rather than face them. Phew rant over.
Natalie,
I appreciate what you said and I agree it seems so impossible to try to reason with people like you describe. I wonder how education or lack of it plays into this? I found another article in a recent Nat Geo that ties into what Laura F said about psycopathy, altruism and brain structure. I’ve posted the article below.
Zoron - interesting questions especially as to whether the type of human we are discussing is on the rise or decline. I’m not much of an intuitive but I have a curiosity about how much of the opioid crises is taking the kind of people Natalie describes.
I have a hope that this new generation that is rising up has a greater number of what I would term “balanced brain” and higher empathy than the previous generations. If so, then the unbalanced people we see in the world will eventually die off and perhaps change the population to reflect the more empathetic, collaborative-cooperative elements of humanity. But that would be in line with the predictions here about the last part of this century forward. I have hope but not sure I will see the major shift and its impact in my lifetime,lol!
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/08/science-good-evil-charlottesville/
Hi Laura H, thanks for your response. I think my hubby is one of the kindest most empathetic people I know, but everyone has a range of different types of family members. Both of us have right wingers in our extended family, not sure why really. As far as balanced brain goes, I think upbringing has a lot to do with it, your childhood determines how the genes you were born with manifest later in life (my psychiatrist told me this), I think that in the case of some people very bad childhoods can create unbalanced and dangerous characters. But I don't think it has to be caused by a bad childhood, some people are just mean and horrible regardless of their experiences. Education is important but plenty of families do not stress it, or they only stress it to the extent that a person can have a better income with education, not the love of learning for its own sake. I have met many right wingers from various countries who all sneer at intellectual pursuits and learning, they have no interest in it and think they know everything they need to know already. So maybe lack of curiosity is a trait of conservatives. I don't know but this conversation really interests me.
Hi Natalie,
Your comments are excellent. I think their lack of curiosity comes from a deepinferiority complex, a limitation on their base IQ, that they are aware of, and also that that "They" are not empathic, so they have real problems with dealing with other people, and have low "emotional IQ's. ". Simple, really. I would like to see a distribution curve, (Yes! a bell curve) for the distribution of IQ amongst The "Cave Freaks". anyone here old enough to remember Fred Flintstone, LOL?.
Not sure exactly where this topic is going --- I hope it doesn't imply that one group of people is superior to another group. Every single one of us, at one point in our own individual spiritual evolution, was once not so "enlightened". Some are more politically and spiritually evolved than others but we all come from the same source, on a soul level we are all inherently equal. Everyone is a work in progress, even the conservatives. The speculation about their brains, their genetics, their emotional IQs, etc --- it is very interesting. But I hope this conversation doesn't devolve into "us vs. them" and Nazi-like generalizations about superiority/inferiority of certain political groups. Just because one group is simply farther along in the spiritual/ideological journey doesn't make them better/superior than other groups. It's like adults looking down on children. Can the adults claim superiority simply because they "know" better and the child doesn't "know" any better? I don't think so. Children are still developing and learning. Same can be said with conservatives and other groups deemed to be "primitive". Also, if their faults are genetic (low emotional IQs, amygdala size, lack of empathy, etc), how much can we blame them for their faults?
Gigi, the first thing that popped into my mind after reading your comment is "...and the greatest of these is love" from 1Corinthians 13. In these unsettled times, we would all do well to take a step back occasionally and remind ourselves that we are all children of God/Goddess (or whatever force one believes brought us all into existence).
I'm sorry Gigi if what I posted came across that way. I know that feeling smug and superior is easy when dealing with not the brightest people, and I definitely need to be better at humility. One thing I would never do or advocate for is taking away people's rights. I might hate what they have to say, but I support their right to say it.
No need to apologize Natalie, I don't think you or anyone on this forum is smug or egotistical. Though I can see how easy it would be for most of you to unconsciously come across that way since the majority of you are psychically gifted (I'm not one of you guys). Marley was much more articulate in expressing/translating what I really meant to say, basically that we are all children of God/Goddess.
Zoron - Yes, I'm sure there are studies, and if I wasn't laid up with a nasty rhinovirus I'd go track a few down for you. I know that in The Psychopath Test, Ronson discusses both the research that shows actual physiological differences and also the distribution of psychopathology around the world. It's a fascinating book, he even ventured to speak to some psychopaths - in jail but also functioning within society. Spoiler alert: all those people who like to do big game hunting for trophies? Yeah, psychopaths. From what I recall, the number of people with psychopathology has increased BUT has remained a relatively constant figure when expressed as a percentage of population (sorry I don't recall that figure).
Gigi - your point is very valid. I don't think we're saying that anyone is better than anyone else, just that it's exhausting to constantly be at the mercy of people who are different in ways that are harmful to others. And yes, you're right, it requires empathy and diligence to NOT go down the path of eugenics. In my opinion, it's important to acknowledge these differences and encourage research to find way to ameliorate them in ways that benefit everyone. You can't blame someone for a genetic or physiological difference, but you can blame them for their behaviors when and if they are made aware of how the differences are affecting their behaviors and harming others.
Bottom line - if it became possible to heal genetic or brain differences that cause harmful behaviors, we as the the more enlightened or "adult" humans owe it to the world as a whole to try to make that happen.
I agree with you all that it may be too complex at this point to generalize.
Back in 2006 I listened to a psychology lecture where the professor maintained that the difference between liberal and conservatives was their relative tolerance to dirt.
He said the research found this one big difference: that conservatives were more easily disgusted by physical dirt, while liberals were more tolerant of it.
I figured it had more to do with a more basic underlying trait involving tolerance for disorder or chaos or organic flow versus a need to keep things more concrete, clean, and orderly. Neither of these traits is inherently good or bad. In fact we need both ends of the spectrum in our lives.
But there is clearly much more going on these days than simply tolerance for disorder or dirt. There's a level of brain washing via the media (including social media) that has further divided people into two camps.
I am most confused when people I really really love turn out to be Trumpers. One relationship nearly ended because I tried to educate the other party. He would have none of it. So it was either I shut up or put up.
Today, my right wing friends and I steer clear of these sensitive subjects out of respect for our love for each other. There's no use in trying to educate them. To them, it feels like I'm striking them. I feel the same way when they try to educate me.
Agreeing with Gigi, Natalie, and I think everyone here that the important thing is that we don't dehumanize each other. We don't know where the other person is coming from. We don't know the lens they are looking through. Clearly it's not the same lens as ours. When someone tells me they support Trump, I can get crazy in my head. At that moment, I have to separate my friends' views from of all the pain I feel that man has inflicted on us and on future generations.
One of the most staunchly rigid conservative people I know once expressed compassion for people who don't have access to a higher education. He actually sobbed when he told me about a philanthropist who offered to pay for the college of every kid in an impoverished all black elementary school he'd attended as a child. Yet this same person loves Trump, Paul Ryan, and Betsey Devos who want to cut education to smithereens. He's intensely clean by the way, even cleans under the hood of his car.
My parent and family were Cuban refugees who eventually settled in Miami, which is were I grew up. The entire community of Miami Cubans were extremely right wing -- the original tea party. Even before I understood what it meant to be a liberal I knew I was one, even though I was surrounded and raised by people who were totally retrograde in their beliefs. They were also good, hardworking people, and I loved man of them. I had to be tolerant because there was no other choice, I had to learn to live among people whose political beliefs were abhorrent to me, mostly by practicing constant forgiveness about their cluelessness. I always noticed that there was a LOT of fear behind they way they behaved, and once I got older I realized so many of them were traumatized by the experiences that made them refugees. I see now that most of them probably had PTSD over what they experienced trying to get out of Cuba and trying to survive in a strange land. So, to make a long story short, you can love people and hate their beliefs. The authoritarian mindset is a damaged one. My own parents were socialists in their youth. Trauma turned them into right wingers. That said, there is probably no reasoning with this type of belief system. The solution is to organize and defeat not the people, but the belief system.
My father was born and raised in Havana Cuba. At 18 he left for the former soviet union to study engineering. This is where he met my mother who was a Russian. I grew up in Canada surrounded by my parents friends from the Spanish speaking world and the Russian speaking one, I don't remember politics playing a big role in my childhood. My step mother was also brought up in Cuba (in Santa Clara) but she had family that fled the Cuban revolution and settled in New Jersey and Miami. Nowadays my dad and step mom live next to her Cuban relatives in New Jersey, so I've gotten to know that culture quite well. There is an enormous difference between Cuban Americans the descendants of refugees and Cubans who grew up in Cuba. I've visited Cuba many times and know that it is an ethnically diverse population and that many people there support socialism (even if there is a lot of private grumbling against the regime). Cuban Americans largely descend from the upper classes of pre revolutionary Cuban society. They are overwhelmingly white (Just look at Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz) and right wing. My father who leans conservative thinks that Cuban Americans have lost their minds. My step mother has a very hard time with the fact that her American relatives voted for Trump. For a long time I've viewed Cuban American's conservatism as a mark of their previous social class and status, they still subconsciously yearn for the privilege they had before and so have a hard time empathizing with other groups. I get along really well with my step cousins, they know my political leanings but they don't challenge me on it (I think they know I'd roast them), instead we talk about other subjects and get along just fine. Lynneventura your life sounds fascinating, I'd love to visit Miami, I now have family there too.
Miami Cubans are a breed apart. NJ has a large Cuban American population, but they are far more moderate. As for the diaspora being mostly upper class, yes and no. The rich Cubans left first, but the middle class followed. Cuba had the largest middle class in Latin American pre-revolution. I grew up in a pretty homogenous Cuban American community and there were no rich people, or formerly rich people, among us. Latin America had (and has) very distinct class stratification, and the rich would not have been caught living among the middle/working class. You are right about race. Most of the folks who left Cuba, especially early on, were white, or considered themselves to be. Not sure Jeff Sessions would agree, but they were "white" by Caribbean standards, and this gave them a lot of privileges in American society.
I have family who studied in Russia, and I have a cousin whose mother is Russian, and uncle who speaks Russian. It would be fun to compare notes about our lives Natalie. Rather than bore everyone else with stuff that isn't about predictions, feel free to email me off list if you'd like, at lynnventura10026@gmail. It is a small world, right?
All of these Cuban relatives sound positively enlightened next to what we've got going on in Missouri; clearly the true source of the "Ice Age gene." As reported today in the Huffington Post:
Roy Moore, whose December defeat was a shocking upset, announced Monday his endorsement of Courtland Sykes, who is attempting to unseat Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.), a top target of Republicans in this year’s elections. He praised Sykes as “a man of impeccable character, courage, and Christian faith” and “a leader who will do what is right!”
Sykes says he opposes “career-obsessed banshees who forego home life and children and the happiness of family to become nail-biting manophobic hell-bent feminist she-devils."
Yup, you are right. All my female relatives, including my mom, worked outside the home. No one was called a she-devil. :)