I have a feeling that when the Queen dies it causes a bigger change then just the head of the monarchy changing. I think something happens in peoples minds too, there's a release from the old ways or they can see things much more clearly or something. It's funny that the monarch is usually depicted by the head and that every era of a monarch's rule is distinctly different from the last monarch's rule. It's been so long since the last monarch change nobody can really remember how it changes society. I think it needs the monarch to die for it to create the mass shock throughout society. With today's news the shock could happen instantly around the world and be felt at the same time. Like a kind of mental earthquake.
What does everyone else think?
Changing Monarchs always cause a shock. Even the death of the Queen Mum did. However, many Europeans in a monarchy are royalists. For me it changes from country to country. The Dutch royal house has no reason to still be around imo. There is no fairy-tale, no tradition, and they've only been around since 1800. Tourists do not visit our country to see anything Royal here. They also don't pay taxes, even though they are very rich, and leech off the taxpayer. I'm all for abolishing and am a member of the republican party here.
The British royal house is different however. It is the last old house of Europe. It is has lasting historical roots, influence all around the world, beautiful landmarks connected to them and great traditions which come across as unreal, and yet still are. Tearing that down would be, to me, the same as blowing up Stonehenge or the great pyramids. A royal house can unify and be of great historical significance. It's the only living connection to the past.
Charles will be King. I don't see people 'waking up' a second after Elizabeth dies and say: we're a republic now. Not the mention that the last time they were a republic it sucked. Also, can you imagine having Boris Johnson as president? Yuk! Some changes will be made, logically due Charles being much less of a traditionalist than his mother. He has some good ideas, even though he's an ass.
'How' he rules/starts will determine the longevity of the royal house and the common wealth imo. It might break apart a little. The same happened with the empire when Elizabeth became Queen, but it won't dissolve. I'd worry about Scotland drifting away more;-)
If you allude to the 'interview', I am still unsure of why they had to do this so publicly and do not see any gain for anybody except Oprah. Isn't this much more backstabbing than what Markle's father did? The reason why she kicked him to the curb? I am also quite sure that the 'Archie is kept from being a prince' is not true, since rules of succession and titles are in the rule of law and do not compute with what ms. Markle says. Next to that it has been known for years that the RF is slimming down in active members. This was before she entered the scene etc. However, it is clear that all parties are hurt and I hope this whole mess will be cleared up without more misery.
@luminous, I think the right wing bile you are talking about has ballooned due to the anti Europe sentiments in the UK, which stoked 'we are the empire' all around. It will bite them in the ass though since the younger generation and Scotland on that.
However, labor has had quite some power in the 90s and I believe this can return. Don't think you can compare the UK to the US though and a bit unfair to compare the RF to the likes of Murdoch and Trump. The RF does have charities and they do pay taxes for one. I am not saying they are good ppl, they are certainly far removed from us 'commoners', but let's be careful throwing everybody on the same pile.
I've thought about this some more and I think the king/queen is inter-twinned with many people's sense of identity. It's like an attack on the queen is an attack on themselves even though they know nothing of the actual person themselves. This mixing of identity reaches far beyond the kingdom. I think some people's identities are so inter-twinned with the royal family it would be impossible to separate them, I think some people are unaware that their identities are even connected this way. That's why when the queen dies I think it will be a huge global shock and there will be a feeling of insecurity, panic and uncertainty on a mass scale. The ship will need to be steadied for such an event. Those who are not royalists will be able to shrug off the event more easily.
I think there are two things going on:
1. The fairytale idea of a monarchy, with a just king/queen who looks after the people and because self preservation is a kind of insurance policy against tyranny. Many popular dictators probably also fill the same role when they are at the very start of their dictatorships, when they are most loved by the people. A kind of Stockholm syndrome where both parties need each other in the relationship to survive.
2. The thought that the Royal Family are not nice people.
Those two thoughts are in conflict with each other.
It shows just how hard it is to challenge such an institution, when it's tied into people's identity and security. It makes the monarchy self protecting.
I would like to apologise for comments about the Royal family. I realise that actually what I said was handled poorly.
@moonbeam you are right. The Royals aren't to blame for everything. I think my issue is more with the elite powers exerting their influence over the lives of many people for so long, such as in the media and politically.
I recognise that even though I may not like our royal dark history, I respect the good work they do as well. In fact, I think it was some of the Royals that took issue with Trump ignoring climate change!
My issue is really with the media moguls and political elites propagating divisive discourse and disunity - something which I'm sure the Royals take issue with as well.
I again apologise unreservedly for my comments I made that were insensitive and chosen poorly.
@luminous, oh sweetie, no need to apologize. I wasn't offended and I don't think anyone else would be;-) I am not the RFs cheerleader, but interviews like the one that has just been done, have always left a bad taste in my mouth. It feels a bit like a gossip magazine on air. I just don't understand the why. It always hurts ppl and never leads to good. It always feels as unfair because the RF will never be able to respond in kind due to rules. Why share stuff like this with the world?
I totally agree with you that media in the UK and US (not all, but some) are out of control and although it's usually right-wing, left-wing media will of course always use their own spin. Nothing is 100% neutral reporting although I am shocked when I read English newspapers compared to Dutch ones...
Political elites are never a good thing and sometimes 'Royals' are part of it. This is why I am not a fan of the Dutch Royal House. They do not pay a dime of taxes and some have no regard for the people. One of the 'princes' for example bought up hundreds of houses in Amsterdam only to rent them out for extremely high prices and abusing his power that way. When called out on it, he was offended. An aunt used all kind of sneaky ways to stash her cash because as none immediate RF she had to pay taxes and avoided doing so via Jersey. When everybody had to stay in lock-down, the RF took a private plane to Greece! They got called on it and were forced to return. Elizabeth never did stuff like that.
Things like this (too much power/disconnect from 'normal people') are never a good thing. I do think Elizabeth has integrity though and a great feeling of duty. However, she's also human and grew up in a very disconnected manner.
As for people living here thinking they live in a fairy-tale? No. Nobody is that delusional. That's where American, Japanese etc. tourists come in buying all the souvenirs! ?
That said, why do Americans have an issue with people burning their flag? Or a bible even? Why is the White House a thing? Europeans will be critical of their royal houses, but they won't like the critique coming from those who are not part of the nation. It *is* part of identity, in England more than any European nation due to the longevity. However, as said, if Charles doesn't step up after the Queen is gone, chances are the Windsors' reign will end. The younger generation won't feel that connected at all.
I don't feel the monarcy will go away in the near future. I think it will undergo changes, especially when William takes the helm. Whether those changes will bring it to where it needs to be is yet to be seen. As noted above, it is part of the national identity. Even for all she went thru, Diana was a monarchist to the end.
I didn't watch the interview. I've done Oprah's show, so I know from experience there is an objective in mind while filming. The editing of some of the headlines they showed for sensationalism was a fine example of that in this instance.
There were quite a few bits of misinformation presented, and I felt in several cases, they knew it. Without watching I can't guess if Oprah knew or not.
I believe Harry's fear is in having his mother's struggles repeated. While he sees himself as Meghan's savior (which his mother didn't have), I feel he knows deep down he is somewhat responsible for Meghan's struggles. He rushed things & basically she was thrown into the deep end as a result- just like Diana. He's lashing out & blaming others instead of looking inward. Granted he didn't turn a blind eye like his father, but he also knew from watching Kate, things hadn't changed much from his mother's time (leopards don't change their spots) and yet what did he do proactively? Meghan wasn't a naive 19 year old either.
Just in what I've read, his & Megan's dysfunctions are as much to blame as those around them. This was not a one way street. Dragging & hurting others publicly as they've done will only make matters worse. I feel that down the road Harry will have some real regrets. His actions (some via Meghan) have shattered trust with William & Kate. They will mend fences eventually, but may never regain what they once had. I don't even want to think of his heavier burden should his grandfather not recover. Such a shame.
Things like this (too much power/disconnect from 'normal people') are never a good thing. I do think Elizabeth has integrity though and a great feeling of duty. However, she's also human and grew up in a very disconnected manner.
I think the RF is in kind of a no-win situation. Imagine being born into that. You've got all this privilege, but all these rules and expectations and you never asked for any of it. You were just born and grew up in a strange kind of gilded cage. You've got great power to influence public opinion, but your freedom is restricted. They didn't ask for the power, they didn't fight for it, they were just born with it. As was said to Spiderman, "With great power comes great responsibiity". That's a lot to put on anyone's plate.
Now, Harry has tried to escape the gilded cage but I don't think he ever can do it completely. He wants to serve, but without the archaic constraints. But keeping to the archaic constraints is a big part of what keeps the RF distant, remote, untouchable, and respected. Without this respect, they would not have near the influence they have. That influence can be used for good or bad and to their credit most of the RF seem to sincerely want the best for their people and the people of the world. I really think most of them are trying to do the best they can with the bizarre conditions under which they were born.
That said, why do Americans have an issue with people burning their flag? Or a bible even? Why is the White House a thing?
Those are EXCELLENT points!!
why do Americans have an issue with people burning their flag? Or a bible even? Why is the White House a thing?
These are all social constructs and a convenient way of controlling people by hijacking their identities.
Nature knows nothing about lines on a map or the colours on a flag, but we have built these imaginary things as convenient way of controlling people and dividing resources.
These social constructs are self preservating and so almost impossible to break free from.
It will be interesting to see if people's identities are tied to the Queen or the monarchy as an institution. It will only survive as long as people keep believing in the construct.
To me it's bizarre that people sing 'God save the queen' when only 37% of people believe in a God (Eurobarometer Poll 2010), but if you don't sing this song (also another social construt), you'd be labeled as an enemy of the people and a bad person.
It's a very powerful way of getting people to support the systems and power structures that we have today.
It wasn't you that made me think that. The angels have been trying to steer me away from getting into particular patterns of behaviour and thoughts throughout the pandemic. It doesn't mean that I should be passive either, but more realising those things no longer serve me and to let them go, and realise that we are all learning through different paths. Quite rightly I may not agree with the behaviours and actions of certain powerful people, but I must learn to not let those things occupy my thoughts and and energy, especially at a time right now. In a sense, I am trying to heal this part of me. It's a work in progress.
@luminous then I wish you all the strength and love to get to where you want to be ❤️
I’m sorry but I don’t agree with some of the points made is this conversation. Meghan was literally saying that are making her the scapegoat for all the wrong of the royal family including Andrews pedophilia and Williams extramarital affair. Literally the family was selling stories to the media to take heat of other family members. And all she wanted was some support from the family for the fake negative headlines they’re writing about her that were not true. Whether intentionally or not they use Meghan’s race as fodder for the British media. They may not be racists but they definitely used her race to cover up their sins. And I don’t understand why people don’t want her to speak out about this. You wouldn’t say that a woman shouldn’t never speak up about the abusive relationship she had with her husband because she escaped it? Even after this interview they’re still trying to make her the villain when there is a much bigger story here.
Well, you also have to keep in mind that H&M have been intent on "cashing in" on the RF's name since Day #1 of their "escape". Remember their trademarking "Sussex Royal" before the Queen forbade it? They were hoping to make a bundle from their RF connection, something that is expressly forbidden by the Queen. And now the Oprah interview which is like punching a man with one arm tied behind his back: H&M know the RF cannot/will not fight back in that manner. While there is nothing wrong in identifying existing problems, they should have been dealt with privately with a measure of decorum and family loyalty. Unfortunately, H&M's "brand" and TV ratings mattered to them more. I have lost a great deal of respect for the three of them..
@isabelle It’s fine if you don’t like them. My point is that how is that a bigger scandal than Andrews pedophilia and Williams extramarital affair. The British media has barely touched on those scandals. They should be dominating the tabloids from left to right. Yet the onslaught of negative press that Meghan has had for things that are not even true is due to the purposeful leak and support from her “own” family. I’m not saying she’s innocent in all this but I’m saying that you may need to examine why you're more outraged by that then by what Andrews and William have done.
I will be bowing out after this message. I cannot be part of group that choose to put down other women. Especially a pregnant woman of color who is going to the most challenging time in her entire life.
@leona, as Isabella already said you are jumping to conclusions. To lump us all in the same group as the media and say that we're vilifying a pregnant woman is offensive, at least to me. I am *very* pro-woman. However, that doesn't mean that you cannot be critical of their actions. To me it reeks of extremism and blindness if critical thinking is thrown out of the window. You should *always* be critical and examine the facts.
Fact remains that certain things should have been done differently. Fact is that things were said that were not true. Harry especially should have know better. Saying, for example, that his father is a prisoner of the firm and doesn't even know it. Charles has been railing against this since the 60s! It is a well-documented fact that he hates the situation and yet he still does his duty. Same goes with the rule of law with prince titles etc.
Going with emotions in a situation like this is never a good way to go. That is why I said it isn't good for anyone and it still isn't. Imagine being in a meeting with your entire department/school etc. at work and then railing at a colleague, with nobody asking critical questions and nobody being allowed to defend themselves. You would be allowed to go at it for two hours however. How would that go you think?
The RF is cold and relying on rule of law. I can imagine how difficult living in a family like that would be, but nobody is a winner here.
It's already blowing up in their face in Britain, because they were pitting one side against the other, and that is a crying shame. It didn't have to be this way. A communique/statement, factually listing everything that had been done to them with solutions offered would have been much better and kept them out of the wind. It would have been professional and nobody would have fodder to attack them with.
As for your other issues. Andrew is still being investigated, that is not going away. he has been sacked from royal duties and now we're all waiting when he will be charged. William's alleged affair is between him and his wife. We have nothing to do with this.
However, I am also done with this now. I wish Harry and Megan the best, just as I wish the RF the best. Let them sort it out themselves.
King Arthur would have been so disappointed in today's Royal Family.
This has been a good discussion. I've learned a lot from each of you. We can see different viewpoints, and none seem wrong. It's the three blind men and the elephant. People have different perspectives because they are seeing the situation from a different vantage point. It would be great if someone could re-read these posts and lay out the different viewpoints to help us understand this issue better.