The Vaccine - Many issues to discuss

@mas1581 Ugh, this sounds like the reaction I had from the H1N1 vaccine back in 2009. I always got/get my flu shot, so I got the double dose that year and OMG I felt like I run over by a truck for 2 days. I'll never forget that. 

I wonder if health officials/governments will have to do a massive comms plan to allay some fears and disinformation? I haven't seen anything yet, but just informing people (whether they believe it or not) and getting that info out there about what to expect could help manage expectations. 

I mean I'm a person who is trusting the science and 100% behind vaccines and even I'm not pumped about getting it right away. Wish we had more time to see more studies but no dice with the spread of this disease. 

Posted by: @isabelle

@mas1581

 

My fear is that the Covid vaccine might prompt a similar response as the two-part Shingrix vaccine (for Shingles) which many people experienced as just awful.  So bad that many refused to take the second shot  -- even though that jeopardized their future immunity.  Personally, I forced myself to take both shots (6 months apart) so as to obtain maximum immunity but was sick as a dog for about 3 days each time. Felt almost like "germ warfare" and was frightening.  Hope to God this new Covid vaccine is nothing like that...

Wow, Isabelle, sorry you had such a bad experience, and good on you for taking the second dose anyway.   So many people aren't that logical, though. 

At least when you have a vaccination, you can schedule it and plan on taking some personal time if you need it. And the obvious biggie is the vax is highly unlikely to put you in the hospital and on a ventilator. 

You are 100% right Iridium. 2 days of feeling like crap twice is much better than a vent or going to funeral. 

As far as a PR campaign, there will surely be one. I am still as cautious as anyone getting the vaccine. I still want to see the data from the trials and will follow whatever I can get my hands on from now til then. The positive we have as "average" people is that not only will we have the trials to go off of, but we will probably be 3rd wave of people to be offered it so there will be months of real world data to go off of. We just have to make sure we realize what the reported stories are. If there is a big issue thats one thing, but as charged as MSM is these days, every single reaction will be reported as if its the end of the world and we ha e to put those stories into perspective. There will be reactions and there will be bad stories out there, but if its 5 people out of the 2 million vaccinations given, we have to realize its minimal at best that something will go wrong. We can rest assures we would hear a lot about each and every one of those 5. 

If Dr. Fauci takes the vaccine I will take it. 

@mas1581

Effective public health education will be key here.  When I took my first shot of Shingrix, the nurse made clear that many people experience pretty severe side effects...but that unless one took both shots within the specified time period, one would not gain the 95% lifetime immunity the shots supposedly confer.  No point in dodging/minimizing this crucial information.  It is far better to be straightforward with the public in terms of exactly what to expect.   Of course, some may not experience such severe side effects.  But for me, that Shingrix vaccine was, by far, the worst vaccination I've ever had to experience.  But if it meant a 95% lifetime immunity, I was ready to undergo it gratefully.  Hopefully much of the public will feel the same way.

Posted by: @barbarmar22

If Dr. Fauci takes the vaccine I will take it. 

All three ex-presidents (Obama, Clinton, and Bush Jr.) have said they will get the vaccine publicly.

And today Biden said he would do so as well.  (Leadership:  That's how you do it.)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/02/politics/obama-vaccine/index.html

@ana

Thank you... you made good points. Also, if the Covid vaccine ends up being as severe as the Shingrix vaccine is, I would caution people who live alone not to take it without making sure you have a friend or family member close by.  I could barely walk the first day after each shot and needed help getting around.  Thank God, my daughter was with me.  As scary as this sounds, people need to know exactly what to expect. And, hopefully, the logical part of their brain will kick in and do the right thing...

@isabelle

That is a great point. Thank you for stating it

It appears that Pfizer will be releasing about 17,500 vax doses to New Mexico here within December. This state was chosen, one of four, including Texas, Rhode Island and Tennessee, as a 'Pilot Distribution Program' point.The reasoning is due to infrastructure, population, and severity given the size of the state, etc. A guinea pig -'experiment' if you will, for wider distributions and applications across the nation. 

The limited amount of doses will of course be available to those on the front lines, health care workers, first responders, and also the endangered elders, nursing homes, and prison workers, essential providers. The additional bulk of doses won't be available 'til later, and now Pfizer has made some kind of statement about having production problems and having to cut it's original estimate of doses destined for worldwide distribution by a concerning %...?? What's up with that?

Our Gov Michelle Lujan Grisham has said she has confidence in it, and will take it along with her family when it becomes more widely available. The rates of Covid have grown astoundingly here this month, with more deaths and new cases each day like never before. A local (very crowded) nursing home center has had a record number of cases and deaths amongst staff & clients, more than half the people there.

So, we continue. We continue to navigate the pandemic, and to go on bravely doing the best we all can do to have some normalcy in our lives and not to give in to panic or extremes, even though we are all in the maelstrom of this corrosive atmosphere ...

I am so amazed that everyone is as resilient and yes, valiant as they are when there is always a two ton elephant in the room that no one can ignore....

Being someone that never liked  exploitive Western medicine all that much, I never took flu shots, and only prescribed to the general trend if it was absolutely necessary. I am now seeing this vaccine as the only way that we as individuals, as states, as countries of the world will be able curb the virus and to regain our health and sanity. Really.

Suffering a little discomfort and hardship is nothing compared to having a potential deadly viral tsumani wave consuming half the population of the planet, bottom line.

It's reality, and one that we are dealing with very well , imho

There are always the medical exceptions to the efficacy of  vaccines, but every one of us needs this if it's at all possible.

I even continue to have hope that one day soon there will be an vax for the susceptible animal species that have been so vulnerable & destroyed (like the poor minks) and cats, and dogs, and perhaps many wildlife species that we don't even know about yet....

There has to be continued vigilance, and continued hope, because this challenge is one that's not going away any time soon.

@mas1581 I know I still need to get the vaccine as soon as I'm able to because of some health issues, but you have me more than a bit anxious about it with your description of the side effects.  I'm assuming that these are known and documented side effects from the clinical trials?   I also have a question that maybe you can answer (or anyone else, really) because I haven't been able to find anything.

For all the talk about the vaccine, I am reminded of the statements over the last several months that acquired immunity to covid-19 is not permanent and may only last a few months at best.  There have been several documented cases of people who had it, recovered, and then got it again a few months later, so what does that mean in terms of this vaccine?  How long will it last?  Does the two-shot method confer longer immunity, such as with tetanus, where you have to get a booster shot every X number of years?

@tgraf66

Its easiest if broken down between what we know for sure from clinical trials and the infected public, and what we are expecting long term from exposure/vaccines. 

What we know

1. Vaccine and exposure gives at least 4-6 months immunological resistance. It isn't known of it is still transmitted from those with resistance yet.

2. Vaccines show antibody production for up to 6 months

3. Infection shows memory T cells remain beyond 6 months and are used to "remember" the virus and create the correct immune response-which should protect from cytokine storms(the cause of deadly covid pneumonia)

4. The booster should give people 1 year antibody immunity at least 

What we expect

1. In similar infections, the presence of memory t cells without antibodies greatly reduces damage done by viral infection for life

2. Since memory t cells outlast antibodies in non clinical infections, that should be same with those vaccinated

3. Booster vaccines could produce long lasting antibodies, as they do in some cases but not all. This would give lifelong immunity but is about a 50-50 chance since we haven't had time to study this at all

My hopeful but realistic expectation is that the vaccine with booster will give a year or two full resistance followed by years, if not lifelong, protection from severe/deadly cases. It should turn covid into just a nasty flu with minimal mortality rate in those vaccinated. 

My worst case expectation is that not enough get vaccinated and its only a year immunity and we have to get the vaccines yearly until a better alternative is created. 

My best case expectation is that, no matter what happens with the longevity of the vaccine, enough are vaccinated/infected that we do create herd immunity for long enough and it disappears or is forced to mutate so drastically and quickly that it becomes a common cold and we no longer have to worry about it.

One more caveat to add is that not everyone will be immune with vaccination. Everyone's biochemistry is different and some people will fall thru the cracks amd have no protection. It should be a very small percentage but will definitely happen, as with any disease. 

Chicken pox, for example, is a 1 time disease with lifelong immunity for well over 99% of the population. I turned out to be one of the "lucky" ones that got 2 separate bad cases of it 3 years apart as a kid. Just like me with chicken pox, there are always the exceptions.

@mas1581

Hi Mas ...  Can you tell us what's actually in the composition of the Covid vaccine? I thought you might have researched that if the info is available.

It's not a live virus apparently, so will have a different effect than other (live) vaccines that may produce uncomfortable or potentially debilitating side effects. This fact might encourage more people to take accountability for getting the vax .... ?

@stargazer

Aside from the fillers/stabilizers/etc that are new in this composition, but not new to medical/food use overall, the active viral part of the vaccine is an encapsulated rna strand used to make the spike protein everyone talks about. 

Put simply, its the genetic code for that protein in a "cell"(not really but keeping it simple)

The RNA goes into your cells and causes them to make the protein for the spike, but not the part of the virus that attacks your lungs/blood vessels/etc.  You body, then, kills the cells "infected" with that viral RNA, which is what causes the fever, chills, muscle pain, swollen lymphnodes, and injection site pain that we will see as side effects. It causes the immune system to recognize the spike protein in the future and develop a proper strategy to fight the virus without the chance of the virus going haywire and doing damage, since none of the other genetic material is included. 

Your term of "live virus" is correct, as it is "live" viral RNA, but nothing that will cause any major tissue damage and not the full virus's RNA. 

In case you want to dive further into the "live virus" idea, there is still debate out there but viruses generally aren't considered living, since they cannot reproduce alone and have to have a living host cell to accomplish that. All a virus is comprised of is a strand of genetic material enclosed in a protein sheath/shell. How they actually work is by injecting their genetic material into live cells, which ends up hijacking the cell and forcing it to produce more viruses. 

Here’s the Pfizer label with ingredients and other info.

https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?setid=908ecbe7-2f1b-42dd-94bf-f917ec3c5af8

@lowtide.  I laughed at your comment re better cell reception!  I bet plenty of us might agree to a tracker for reliable reception. :)  here's a serious question though:  What is the point of tracking people?  

@jewels. Who knows??? I can’t get into the minds of conspiracy theorists. And I don’t want to!! ?

Posted by: @mas1581

@stargazer

...

The RNA goes into your cells and causes them to make the protein for the spike, but not the part of the virus that attacks your lungs/blood vessels/etc.  You body, then, kills the cells "infected" with that viral RNA, which is what causes the fever, chills, muscle pain, swollen lymphnodes, and injection site pain that we will see as side effects. It causes the immune system to recognize the spike protein in the future and develop a proper strategy to fight the virus without the chance of the virus going haywire and doing damage, since none of the other genetic material is included. 

...

@mas1581, thanks for the detailed info. Question -- if a person does not experience a fever or any other side effects to show the immune system kicking in, does that mean the vaccine did not work for them? 

@yofisofi

The easy answer is No. Your body will have an immune response no matter what, and side effects don't mean it worked/didnt work. The only reason it won't work is if there is an issue with your immune system that causes you not to have an immune response at all, or you have immune issues that cause you to not retain antibodies or memory t cells for any length of time. Both of these issues would be almost certainly known by the patient already as it would affect the immune system in general and not just covid immunity. The chance of having a normal immune system but no immune reaction to the vaccine is possible but would be extremely rare, based on data from other vaccines.

When dealing with covid, most of the damage done to patients is done by their own immune system trying to fight the virus and not the virus itself so this could also be a natural immunity that we know is out there but have no understanding whatsoever of it yet.

Most severe covid cases are caused by immune responses going haywire because they don't know how to fight the virus. Think of it as your body is using a nuclear warhead to kill a fly because it can't find the fly swatter. That is why the symptoms vary from asymptomatic thru death and there is no real rhyme or reason as to who gets how sick. It is also why kids are less effected in general. Their immune systems are less developed. 

Again, most of the info I am giving on who the vaccine wouldn't work for is speculative based on other viruses and vaccines. There is so much involved that, without covid specific data, I cant be close to 100% sure of this. 

If any of my answers are redundant or come off as arrogant, I apologize. I am just trying to make sure I take the info in my head that has become second nature to me, and put it a way that everyone can understand without coming across as a know it all.