The alleged rise in vasectomies has spawned a discussion about the decision to have children. So I'm moving the cultural impacts of the Roe v Wade decision to it's own thread.
I fear it is going to get worse before it gets better. I just heard about a Texas case where a woman almost died from a miscarriage because the doctors wouldn't do the procedure until she was almost dead (the usual "fetal heart" excuse). Apparently, the same procedure that is used to rid a woman of a miscarriage (and thus save the woman from internal hemmorages, severe pain, septic shock, and possible death) is the same procedure used for abortions.
So, eh, yeah. We are just a month into Post-Roe and already we have raped children and women with miscarriages being made to almost bleed to death.
I hate to say it, but I think we will be getting some stories involving dead children and women soon. I think it goes without saying that not only are the anti-women states red states, but red states are notorious for having the worst overall health care systems. So, we will probably see children forced to give birth to their rapists' babies and die in the process, or women who die long, lingering deaths as a result of miscarriages while old men pat themselves on the back for putting uppity women in their place.
Funny, it seems as though our place as women is six feet under, by their logic.
They may be comfortable with blood on their hands, but I will rejoice when people swarm the streets and scream loudly at the great injustice that they are inflicting on us. Then they will wear the shell-shocked look of accident victims who look blankly ahead when we take back our country.
Republicans don't know it, but they have become the enemy to anyone who believes that women are actual people and not objects to rape and have babies with. To twist a woman's natural strength to bear a child and turn it into a form of bondage and slavery is unforgivable. Most of the younger generations feel this way too, and the time will come when Republicans are not only thrown out of office, but they will look on with shock and despair as the younger generations not only dismantles their anti-abortion crusade, but everything that the Republican party has stood for (unlimited guns, tax breaks for big corporations and the ultra-rich, denial of global warming, right-wing lunatics and racism, etc.). Further, when they yell and scream and obstruct and threaten, they will find that their usual methods no longer work, as younger generations will look upon them with such loathing that hoping the Republican Party will never rise again and become a small minority, much as it is in California.
I pray I live to see the day when the country gets to the point that Republicans find themselves so far in the minority that they never regain power and look back on this moment as the beginning of the end.
It is one thing to go against minorities, the gay/lesbian/transgender communities, immigrants, etc. Even if they all team up and vote as a block, they can't hope to overcome the affects of gerrymandering. But women? That is another matter entirely. Women voters outnumber men voters in this country. So if the majority of the women vote Democrat and make it a priority to vote Democrat until we take back the country and drive Republicans like Trump, McConnell, Cruz, and Desantis into oblivion, then nothing will stop their reckoning.
They made a grave mistake going after women with abortion as a means to subjugate us. They will rue the day a woman or girl dies as a result of their policies. Because nothing stirs up a woman more than the death of a child. And woe to the Republican rapists who make it happen. When it does, I hope they are ready for the fallout.
Women in this country who will be subject to this "forced birth form of bondage" should simply go on strike and "close their legs"!! There is "power" in them nether regions! :)
Also, I wonder whether, along with HPV and other recommended vaccines, that birth control sponges should not be recommended for women of child-bearing age starting at age 18 as a standard procedure until she chooses to become impregnated? That or insisting upon reversible vacsectomies for the men. If the Pro Life crowd gets so bent out of shape by a beating heart (and then takes zero responsibility for it after it is born!), then take actionable and do-able steps to prevent it in the first place!!
I don't think your statement is from bad intention, however saying something like you did is EXTREMELY offensive.
I would ask you to think on it.
"Closing the legs" is no bulwark against rape, incest, domestic violence, date rape, etc. The women who are partnered with the "alpha"males who are subjugating the rest of us are not going to go on strike a la Lysistrata, this is how they want things. They crave theocracy.
Also, they're going to come after contraception next. The right wing in the US is nothing but a bunch of hypocrites. Let THEIR mistresses and daughters get unwanted pregnancy and they'll get them an abortion no matter how far they have to go.
Welcome to Gilead.
I certainly did not mean to be offensive and what I said was said primarily in a "tongue in cheek" kind of way. You are correct of course: there is PLENTY of sexual abuse/coercion/incest, etc. going on by alpha males, misogynists, etc. and what is going on re. overturning abortion rights is outrageous. My point is that, in some way, women must take back their own power. The anti- abortion stance is horrendous enough...if they do come after birth control then Gilead WILL truly have arrived. I wonder if this would affect marriage rates (which have been declining in the U.S. in recent years anyway)? Family structures have been evolving to include alternate forms: same sex partnerships, single mothers by choice, surrogacy, sperm donation and companionate (non-sexual) marriages among others. If forced pregnancy becomes part of our country's established landscape, I wonder whether a significant percentage of women might not begin to turn away from traditional marriage and begin seeking out alternative (and safer!) ways of forming their families? Women need to maintain control over their own bodies, safety and family planning!
Btw, you took the words out of my mouth: Should any of our theocratic-loving right wingers be faced with an unwanted pregnancy, no doubt they would hotfoot it to the closest abortion clinic in the next state over. They are, without doubt, a bunch of power-hungry hypocrites...
A little bit of levity on the topic of sex....and I apologize in advance for this but it made me laugh so hard....the headline read, "Harvard scientists have identified the number one cause of vaginal dryness" and underneath was a picture of Matt Gaetz and Ted Cruz. 🤣
MAGA Mothers against Greg Abbott will this resonate with voters?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sm-77iXC3k
Regards to all
In some ways women are taking back their power where they can. Some women are making the choice to never be a parent by choosing to be surgically sterilized. This quote is from an AP article. Every woman that attended the FAQ session on tubal ligation/Fallopian removal made an appointment for the procedure. Every woman.
“
Dr. Tyler Handcock, an Austin OB-GYN, said his clinic has heard from hundreds of patients seeking sterilization since the Supreme Court’s June 24 decision. Many choose this route because they fear long-acting birth control or other contraceptives could also become targets, he said.
His clinic scheduled a July 9 group counseling session to handle the surge, and every one of the 20 patients who showed up to hear about the risks and ramifications of fallopian tube-removal made an appointment to have the surgery.”
https://apnews.com/article/abortion-science-health-medication-lupus-e4042947e4cc0c45e38837d394199033
Unfortunately, a lot of drs refuse to tie tubes. I get so mad when I hear people say, just get your tubes tied. Women who even have health conditions where pregnancy could cause worsening health and/or death have been refused. I was reading drs refusal to deny medical treatment (tie tubes) could be human rights violation under gender and disability (medical). I would like to see some lawsuits filed over it. I bet there are lawyers out there who would do it now pro bono. Wish I knew where to find these groups.
@mistysue41 you are not wrong. There are Drs who refuse because “you might regret it.”
There are also Drs who will trust that their patients know themselves and their personal wishes. But to this date they have been in the minority.
There is a weird cultural contortion that tends to happen here in the US: young women here are pressured to have kids on all fronts. When I was young, I was undecided on whether or not to become a mother. Here are some of the things people said to me, and I want you to know it includes psychotherapists (one of whom never had kids herself):
- You'll regret it if you don't have kids.
- No one is ever on their death bed saying, gee, I wish I didn't have kids.
- C'mon, have kids so they can play with my kids.
- Wouldn't your nephews and nieces like cousins?
- Don't you want someone there to hold your hand when you die?
- You're gonna want someone to look after you when you get old.
- Hardest job but you'll love it.
- Childbirth is less painful than cramps and you won't care once you hold the baby.
- When are we gonna see more grandkids?
- Pregnancy is so easy - I felt great.
- If you want to hang onto your man, better give him a baby.
Many of the people who said these things knew I had endometriosis, ovarian cysts, autoimmune issues, etc. at the time. I caved to the pressure but I turned out to be seriously infertile and decided that given my doubts, would not go to full lengths to get pregnant (at the time it would have involved IVF plus experimental immunotherapies, for a cost of over $100,000 as insurance would have covered none of it). My husband and I decided to adopt. Foreign adoption, in fact (because we knew 2 families who were going through hell with private US adoptions).
Our daughter is now a young adult, and I love her dearly. Even so, if I could go back in time I would NOT become a parent, especially not here in the US. I have talked to my daughter frankly about this, and told her that it is HER life, and whether or not she decides to have kids or not is HER decision, and I respect her choice either way, BUT that she should consider emigrating and having and raising kids in another country, as this society makes it dangerous and difficult. Yes, I am one of the few who regrets becoming a parent at all, and I feel no shame admitting that if it saves other women the angst and anxiety I went through in my decision process.
ETA: women of color face the opposite pressures, btw.
@laura-f Both my sister and I chose to never have children (a very abusive childhood was the reason). My sister had her tubes tied when she was 26 (in the late 70s). When I asked her about it many decades later she said “I felt if I had a child I would beat it to death”. I was meticulous about birth control the whole of my fertile life (and perhaps was not particularly fertile because of large uterine fibroids and ovarian cysts). I also endured the endless “You should have children, you’d be a great parent”. I never wavered and I have absolutely no regrets and neither does my husband. Never let family, friends, nor society dictate your life.
I am post-menopausal at this point, but am friendly with several younger women who chose to never have kids also - they refer to themselves as "wine aunties". They enjoy the company of other people's kids occasionally (including spoiling nieces and nephews), but none have any regrets.
I envy their lifestyles - long/happy marriages, lots of travel, self-exploration, less stress, better ability to engage with their communities or be activist, better retirement planning...
My husband and I calculated in 2018 that the financial cost of raising our daughter by that time, all in, including the adoption, was about $400,000.
Some good news is that more men are opting for vasectomies than ever since the criminal SC decision.
More men are seeking vasectomies now that the Supreme Court has overturned Roe.
I completely understand your point of view. No woman should be pressured/forced/guilted into becoming a mother if that is not her wish. My sister loves being an aunt but never had any desire for children. I, on the other hand, became a mother through international adoption and feel it was the singularly BEST decision I have ever made. I got lucky: she is a great kid and we always had terrific "chemistry" from Day One. But then I ALWAYS wanted to become a mother, even as a very small child, and consider it to be my "higher calling" and a main purpose while in this incarnation... so for me it is deeply satisfying. But I recognize that not everyone feels the same. It IS extremely expensive and plenty of sacrifice is called for. People need to follow their own hearts and instincts in these matters...it's for no one else to judge,
"C'mon, have kids so they can play with my kids!" Yes, definitely a valid reason for reproducing lol 🙄 Having kids if you don't want them is the worst decision ever, not fair to the kids or the parents.
The intense societal pressure to have kids has always amazed me. People who either don't have them or don't want them are nagged, judged, guilted and made to feel like there is something wrong with them. Having children, or not having them, and the reasons involved are and should be private, requiring no explanation to anyone.
We have more than two children because we wanted them, same with our more-than-average number of dogs. It's a personal choice.
Women who struggle with infertility also have to endure some unbelievable comments. People are something else.
My sister and I never had children, precisely because of a traumatic childhood.
And, two years ago, I found out that I'm at risk of having Huntington's disease, a neurodegenerative disease that a child has a 50-50 chance of inheriting from the parent who has it. (My mother has it.)
If I test positive for HD in the future, it will confirm for me that not having children was the absolute best decision I ever made in my life. I wouldn't wish to pass this horrible illness on to any child of mine or for them to have to take care of me in the later stages of the disease, which are similar to the final stages of ALS.
Speaking of abortion and HD: Couples where one of the partners has HD can undergo the expensive IVF procedure of fertilizing several of the eggs. If a fertilized egg doesn't test positive for HD, then the mother carries it to term, thus breaking the cycle of the disease forever. (It can't skip generations.) The other eggs that tested positive for HD are either frozen or destroyed, I believe. Now this procedure could be jeopardized because of the extremist abortion bans out there. I can't express how angry this makes me. The way these extremists so cavalierly play with other people's lives is deeply insulting.
Yes, this happens. But keep in mind we don't know the whole story. There are abusive parents and there are unusually difficult kids. There is usually a major "back story" when you hear of this. I wouldn't rush to judgement.
@laura-f weirdly enough I sat down and wondered why we put so much pressure (as a society) on women to have kids. And honestly the only reason I can come up with is someone to care for us as we age.
As a society, we need a younger generation to care for us as we age and die. Whether we are talking about financially like social security, or physically like Drs and nurse to care for an aging population. We have been conditioned to see that future generation as the ones to care for us. But there is also the idea of a new supply of workers.
Even now some of the population worry about a “declining birth rate” because they are worried about not having enough blue collar workers to make life comfortable for the billionaires as they age (think Musk).
But I have known since I was in school that we are over-populated. And that we will eventually come to another bottleneck where a majority of the population dies off. But since we are not all needed to carry on the species, I don’t personally see any reason to continue to pressure women to be moms if they don’t want to be one.