[Closed] The Great Unraveling and the Great Turning - Rebuilding a Progressive America in the Future

There are reports that ICE has been called to a protest currently going on in Phoenix.

I REALLY hope this is not true.  

To truly "rebuild a progressive America," this is all necessary. I've been viscerally shaken by it all, but I also understand that all of it is fated - because there is so much that is being brought to light for all to see right now - and there is much more to come. George Floyd was brought to this earth to fulfill a much larger purpose - which played out in his death. Thank you @Vestralux for sharing your visions.

It's painful when narratives are exposed that don't fit neatly into a "box" - but it's only when that happens that true change occurs. 

A note on the violence - there is much more yet to come out regarding who is responsible. Here in Nashville, they just arrested a 25-year-old white man who was the person that set fire to the courthouse. 

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/25-year-old-arrested-on-charges-of-setting-fire-to-nashvilles-historic-courthouse?fbclid=IwAR2wT4uf05OyGSB8CaAmvAvCQ6aP8iKfXL4wgow1UtnOTCKsln8lXB60JoE

Posted by: @ana

Is that a price minorities want to pay?   It's a question they might ask of themselves.

@ana, I'm grateful that you've chosen to create dialogue with me here. That's important. This is a painful, difficult subject but a vitally important one—especially for racial non-minorities to have with one another.

So, please know that when I disagree or point out what I may consider to be flawed logic based on essentially privileged assumptions, I do so with respect for you as a living person and with regard to your inherent dignity as a soul. I can see that you're striving toward a sense of things that you can believe is whole and good and just, and that's a valuable motivation, even if it may also be colored by critical misunderstanding. 

To my eye, your quoted statements (above), along with your position that you've made your posts by relying solely on logic, reveal an inherent and unseen privilege. In fact, I believe these examples smack of (unconscious) paternalism, as if you're attempting to both scold Black citizens and then justify your right to do so (i.e., it's just "logic"). Again, I mean you no disrespect whatsoever. I simply believe that this may be an invisible aspect of your privilege you haven't considered—which believe me, I get. And I know it's painful to have to look at.

But in a longstanding patriarchal/capitalist society, we have ALL been indoctrinated to believe in a hierarchical caste system based on class, gender, race, and other differences. Hierarchy Code runs in the background like so much social programming and we are products and participants in it, whether we know it or not. Whether we like it or not.

As a result, regardless of what your own family or personal economic situation may be, if you're white, you automatically fall "above" all minorities in the social code. Is it an absolute bullshit conception? Yes. But it is no less a structural reality.

So, when you criticize the reactions of oppressed people—those who have been far more impacted by policing and the criminal justice system as a whole than you can understand—your intention falls flat. Do you just want to see safe neighborhoods where no one is at risk of losing their livelihood or safety as a result of public protest? I'm sure. But that's not all that you're communicating in the process of attempting to say so, and I hope that you might try to consider that. The fact is, as a result of systemic racism, Black and minority Americans know the price of community violence and destruction within their very bodies; you can only recognize it intellectually, at best. So, you ain't gotta tell them why it's futile or self-defeating. 

It is The System—the false hierarchical social code of a dying epoch—that must be abolished. And whoever the riot actors are, and whatever their motivations or potential blind spots, they are all reacting to that impulse: a rising collective desire to overturn centuries of domination and abuse in order to create something new. 

I personally don't want to see anything burned or broken either. It hurts me for the people in those communities and all of the protestors who will be blamed. But I acknowledge that it is not my place to dictate to Black and minority Americans how they should express their heartbreak, fear, and rage. However, it is my duty to help them create a more just society for us all.

Do any of you think Trump will use these events as his personal Reichstag event?

Posted by: @ana

Posted by: @timo

We can say what we want to say without calling out another, whereby making it personal. 

Of course. I never thought my initial remarks would be interpreted so harshly and I was quite surprised when a firestorm started. 

@timo, I live my life according to a fundamental principle: that it is both valuable and necessary to seek honest feedback about my own actions and perspectives—and to be willing to offer sincere feedback to those I work with and care about. And I care very much about this community.

I believe that if we allow ourselves to hold this kind of discourse, it can actually foster mutual growth and maturity, which sets it apart from personal criticism or attack. My words may feel very direct, but I consider directness an act of utmost respect. I have never intended to be harsh toward @ana or anyone here.

Pointing out white privilege and how it shows itself, especially in the ways we may still be blind to it, is a crucial part of helping to eradicate the programming that created it. I do this with my own daughter, whom I love more than life itself, and I invite her constantly to do so with me (and she does!). The subject matter is serious and uncomfortable, and I can understand how everyone might rather be talking about something else. But I don't consider this a firestorm. To me, it's an act of love. 

@lovendures

I wouldn't be surprised. ICE is the president's de facto police force. They are a supremacist organization. 

There are two things happening simultaneously. The first are the legitimate protests on the part of people who are sickened, enraged, etc., by what has happened not just over the past week, but for months, years, decades, centuries. Some of those protest include bad actors but that's the case with all protests. 

The second is the infiltration of these protests by dark forces, whether they be on the part of the administration, supported by Russia, Erik Prince, and others. Done for the purpose of advancing a right wing takeover of the US. I'm feeling this on a fear level. This is not all that it appears to be. 

Anyone else getting any similar feelings?

@ana

First, welcome to the forum (I know you joined about three weeks ago, but my internet is unreliable, so sometimes there are days or even weeks before I can see the forum).  Second, I did not take offense to any of your posts.  No one here believes violence and/or rioting is the answer.  All it does is hurt innocents.

Having said that, I honestly can't find it in my heart to condemn the protesters.  Not even the ones who are vandalizing.  They are angry.  Why shouldn't they be?  It is one thing when a citizen causes the death of another citizen (such as Mr. Arbury in Georgia a few months ago).  Even then, the authorities in charge drug their feet in terms of charges, and it was only after the case got national attention that the men responsible were arrested.  But with Mr. Floyd's case, when the people hurting others are the ones with power, how else are they suppose to respond?  We continue to have too many unjustified deaths of African Americans at the hands of law enforcement, and if anyone complains, they are accused of playing the "race card."

I am white.  I am a woman.  My ancestors were here since the Mayflower (no joke, an ancestor of my mom and an ancestor of my dad were among the original pilgrims who came to America in 1620.  Also, my mom's ancestor was one of the only four women who survived the winter and the "great dying" during those first horrible months at Plymouth.)  I would say I am priviledged.  I am not rich, but I come from a comfortable middle class rural background.

I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like being an African American male.  To be looked upon with suspicion and fear all the time.  To be pressured to conform a certain way and then be prejudiced against by another group who accuses you of being "too white" or "too black" or "too grotto."  To deal with the stereotypes and the racism that, sadly, Trump has made great again.

All group have stereotypes against them.  As a woman, I have to deal with a lot of sexism.  In this day and age, I carry a pepper-spray canister wherever I go.  I have seen women suffer from sexual harassment and assault.  I myself have had to deal with harassment and at least once I was threatened with assault (I scared him off).  So I have my own stereotypes and issues to deal with.  But that is all the more reason why I speak out against this injustice.  No one should be prejudiced against based on how they were born.  Why should anyone treat anyone bad based on something they were born with!?

Sadly, I am more comfortable hanging out with my African American male friends than I am with my white male friends.  Never once have my African American friends treated me disrespectfully.  We can joke and laugh together, but they never, ever cross the line.  They never harass me or belittle me. 

This next statement is bound to get some pushback, and I am sorry in advance, but it is true.

With my African American male friends, I have never, ever felt fear that they would cross the line and try to take advantage of me and/or try to rape me.  I can't say the same with some of my white American male friends, as a few of them have made some harassing comments in the past and one made an attempt to touch me inappropriately (an attempt that stopped when I made it clear that my feelings were not the same as his).

Regardless, I want to live in a world where I don't have to worry about being raped, because I know that if I am, it will likely be a case of "he said she said."  I want to live in a world where I am appreciated for being me and to be paid the same amount as a male attorney in the same position.  I want to be able to tell men what makes me comfortable and uncomfortable without being made to feel guilty because they misread the "signals."  I am sick to death of watching men of power getting away with harassing and abusing women because they can.

So I can understand the rage that many of these protesters are feeling.  Why should they continue to ask nicely for something that others get without any problem?  Why should they be made to feel guilty for being angry?  They keep asking over and over and over, and yet things don't change.  If anything, it seems that things have gotten worse over the last few years.

Again, I agree that rioting and hurting innocent people is wrong.  I don't support it when Trump supporters do it, and I don't support it when others do it.  Having said that, I can understand why they are angry, and I pray that officials take note of their anger and make changes to address these problems.  So maybe these riots, terrible as they are, will finally bring about positive change, but only if those in power are willing to meet us in the middle to address these problems.

(And no, I am not including Trump in this group.  He is an idiot who makes the situation worse, and I am counting the days until November 3, 2020 when I cast my ballot against him).

But please don't be afraid to post how you feel.  If people take offense, then clarify your points and have discussions with the rest of us.  We are not Trumpers.  We think for ourselves, and share our diverse opinions and ideas because we care about each other and the world.  So please continue to post and share your thoughts.  You are welcome here.

^I wouldn't put it past him. Anything is possible with a madman in the white house.

Posted by: @timo

On a side note, please can we lay off Ana! We can say what we want to say without calling out another, whereby making it personal. We all have room to grow. Let's try encouraging each other through thoughtful expression.

Thank you! You've said more in this one paragraph than others have in a novel-length diary.

Posted by: @lynnventura

The second is the infiltration of these protests by dark forces, whether they be on the part of the administration, supported by Russia, Erik Prince, and others. Done for the purpose of advancing a right wing takeover of the US. I'm feeling this on a fear level. This is not all that it appears to be. 

Anyone else getting any similar feelings?

I have absolutely no doubt that this is their intention, Lynn.

For two years, I've been posting related visions in this forum (or telling them directly to Jeanne and others), describing what I saw would be violent protests starting this summer and going (on and off) through perhaps 2024. I've said that Erik Prince would be somehow involved.

Now, there are rumors/reports of a direct link between him and what's happening now with regard to rouge rioters, ICE, and police (alleged former spies who reportedly trained with Prince's mercenary corps and are now being covertly deployed across the country). I'm not going to link anything directly here on the subject, but if you have a good VPN, please do a search. 

As soon as they saw there is no direct path to DJT's reelection, they appear to have engaged tactical Plan B. I actually believe they would have engaged this maneuver during his second term, either way, but the moment is of the essence, and this is their "now or never." It feels bigger than the Dark Enlightenment/Bannon game plan, though. I also wouldn't doubt that it supersedes Russia and possibly jumps right to China in its anti-democratic desires. It's fascism, plus. And I think we should be paying very close attention to what's happening in the tech space in the run up to the election. 

So yes, it's deeply, deeply disturbing, to say the least.

But I'm being reassured by my council (my guides and teachers) who insists that we have everything we need to disrupt this dark timeline. They're showing me an image of people everywhere—hundreds, maybe thousands of people—meditating on peace. Praying for peace. Intending deeper peace into our lives.

There's a feeling of being ground very slowly inside a high-gravity machine until approximately mid-July, when everything seems to speed up very, very fast. I believe a lot of truth will pour out like flour through a sieve from that point onward until after the New Year. I'm hearing, "Many courageous individuals will step forward." That feels hopeful.

The fourth estate is under attack.  You have your President to thank for that.  Everything is going according to HIS plans.  He gets many in the police forces to do his dirty work.  I say many NOT all.  Important distinction.

He keeps people of brown people in cages.  He's controlling the Senate, the Department of Justice, and many in the military and police departments across the country.  He got FOX News.

But to get good control of the propaganda, he needs to intimidate the rest of the press so things go his way.  This is just history repeating itself.  And the country is numb to it because the citizens can't believe this could happen to the greatest country in the World.

Protect your fourth estate, whoever or whatever they might be.  Protect them all.

@vestralux  Vestralux, I did not find your words, in particular, to be harsh.  I thank you for trying to hear what I trying to say.   I am going to sign off now.  Probably  for a long time.  

I did want to clarify a couple of things:

1)  I do not claim the right to tell anyone how they should *feel* about anything.  PERIOD.

2)  I still do not understand how property destruction is helpful in the long run.

3) I am not scolding anyone.  In fact I hate telling people what they "should" or "shouldn't" do, even in a professional capacity.   But I might caution someone if I think they are about to make a move they may regret. 

4)  I am very logical, it is true. 

5) Yet I am also empathic.  My heart breaks for the oppressed.  

Take care and be well, all. 

@lynnventura

I am sensing this as well.  I am not sure exactly who, perhaps  different components of  dark forces, yes.  I feel some of this is an attempt to "help" Trump.  

@vestralux 

Your comment makes a lot of sense to me.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts and visions.  It gives us a lot to ponder.

I do believe a huge shift is happening.

Tonight Boston erupted in a crisis too.  A day of peaceful protests with most protesters gone home has suddenly erupted in violence, not against people but property.  But as the police move in to push the crowds back, the crowds grew angrier.  We watched it live at the edge of our seats. Not sure what is happening at this moment.  Just so afraid for all of them. 

@Ana, it's a confusing time for all right now. @vestralux and @Laura-f I agree with your points about how white privilege is invisible to those who have it.  But it doesn't help if we pit ourselves against each other here in this forum. Instead let's try to educate each other with kindness.  

I pray this situation creates a positive outcome.  If Biden picks a black running mate, then we may not have to write all those postcards to help people of color get past the roadblocks the GOP has set for them. Come hell or high water, people of color will do everything in their power to vote this election. 

Today, our local mall "closed" before it even opened today.  Mostly because of what happened at the Scottsdale Fashion Center  yesterday.  Well, that and on social media, there were hundreds of posts saying protesters needed to head to our local malls and riot,  So, they boarded up our mall this morning.

I cannot even believe what our local business owners across the country are going through right now after barely surviving Covid closure.

Very sad news.  

St. John’s Church, a historic landmark opened in 1816 and attended by every president since James Madison was set ablaze in Washington DC.  It is also know for its "pew of presidents".  Firefighters quickly extinguished the basement fire, which police was intentionally set.

Posted by: @vestralux

Posted by: @lynnventura

The second is the infiltration of these protests by dark forces, whether they be on the part of the administration, supported by Russia, Erik Prince, and others. Done for the purpose of advancing a right wing takeover of the US. I'm feeling this on a fear level. This is not all that it appears to be. 

Anyone else getting any similar feelings?

I have absolutely no doubt that this is their intention, Lynn.

For two years, I've been posting related visions in this forum (or telling them directly to Jeanne and others), describing what I saw would be violent protests starting this summer and going (on and off) through perhaps 2024. I've said that Erik Prince would be somehow involved.

Now, there are rumors/reports of a direct link between him and what's happening now with regard to rouge rioters, ICE, and police (alleged former spies who reportedly trained with Prince's mercenary corps and are now being covertly deployed across the country). I'm not going to link anything directly here on the subject, but if you have a good VPN, please do a search. 

As soon as they saw there is no direct path to DJT's reelection, they appear to have engaged tactical Plan B. I actually believe they would have engaged this maneuver during his second term, either way, but the moment is of the essence, and this is their "now or never." It feels bigger than the Dark Enlightenment/Bannon game plan, though. I also wouldn't doubt that it supersedes Russia and possibly jumps right to China in its anti-democratic desires. It's fascism, plus. And I think we should be paying very close attention to what's happening in the tech space in the run up to the election. 

So yes, it's deeply, deeply disturbing, to say the least.

But I'm being reassured by my council (my guides and teachers) who insists that we have everything we need to disrupt this dark timeline. They're showing me an image of people everywhere—hundreds, maybe thousands of people—meditating on peace. Praying for peace. Intending deeper peace into our lives.

There's a feeling of being ground very slowly inside a high-gravity machine until approximately mid-July, when everything seems to speed up very, very fast. I believe a lot of truth will pour out like flour through a sieve from that point onward until after the New Year. I'm hearing, "Many courageous individuals will step forward." That feels hopeful.

 

Yup, that is my feeling too. For Donald Trump, it is just another way to get chaos to work in his favor. While I watched the agitators, I thought of how our CIA sent right wing agitators into Latin American democracies back in the 60's to create enough chaos to oust democratic leaders.  

@carmen. I am not predicting yet how it will all end,  but I have long thought he would, if desperate, use Erik Prince or some organized agitators  to help him create chaos so he can declare a state of emergency and stay in office. Unless he takes ill, I can't see him willingly walking away from office next year.   I also can't see the GOP letting go of their majority without resorting to desperate measures.  So while I do not know yet what will happen, I feel they are making contingency plans to hold on to power in case they can't win the election, even with all the voter suppression and Russian meddling.  

Posted by: @cdeanne

@jeanne-mayell "Come hell or high water, people of color will do everything in their power to vote this election."

   

Yes!  On 11 Nov. '19 I clearly heard this for Nov. '20: "Following the election, Congress is predominantly blue because of black (Black voters).