Tee,
sounds interesting, I will check it out
Love this discussion.
BTW, Zoron et al - we have me, Laura F, and Lauri H - so I'm glad Lauri H picked up on Zoron's thanks, since they were not meant for me!
I have a big background in brain/neuro issues and research, partly as an interested/curious observer. I'm familiar with the studies you all have mentioned.
Yes, we know that those on the more conservative/fascist/authoritarian end of the spectrum have a slightly enlarged right side amygdala. Interestingly, psychopaths tend to have smaller amygdalas that are also not as well connected to other brain centers, especially the pre-frontal cortex. (I highly recommend reading Jon Ronson's book "the Psychopath Test" - very enlightening stuff). Psychopaths feel no empathy and no fear, where people with enlarged amygdala are more fearful. One has to wonder if it was the big-amygdala humans who decided to invent religion, and then the psychopaths figured out early on how to use it to their own, evolutionary advantage. And also of note is that the majority of psychopaths are male, but enlarged amygdalas appear to be more evenly distributed among cisgender humans.
YES, epigenetics play a role in a lot of this, in addition to prenatal stress and childhood trauma. In fact, trauma can cause epigenetic changes for 3-4 generations. I did the Nat Geo 2.0 test also. No Denisovan, but 2% Neanderthal. My understanding is that the Denisovans went from Africa across Mongolia and into Siberia, so yes, they would have endured Ice Age conditions a lot longer than many other parts of the Earth. So would the epigenetic stresses be passed down tens of thousands of years? I don't think so, BUT a phsyiological mutation that causes the development of a fetal amygdala that is either too big or too small probably is.
I honestly don't know what we as a species could do to mitigate and contain the never-ending stresses and damage caused by both of these sets of humans. I'm sick to death of the cycles of violence that stretch back thousands of years, of the psychopaths who rise to power with the support of the fearful-authoritarian-fascist-enlarged amygdala humans. Neither group is able to be reasoned with. Both groups share a kind of egotism. Whenever they join forces, it's Hell on Earth for the rest of us.
hi LAURA F.
Ok, this is interesting. Today, firmly in my scientist Mode, I am thinking of the scientific and social issues, but in a way connected to the spiritual issues. So:
Has any work been done on the population distribution of the numbers of asocial, anti-social. and psychopathic element of the population, and the distribution of those with the "Ice-Age gene" inheritance. Also the "Induced" Psychopathic and sociopath element, (brain damage, child abuse, PTSD etc). Plus the spectrum issue. (in any population, some are marginal, and some are full blown serial killers!). I ask this critical question, as if they are a large section of the population, and are gaining in numbers, = very bad!. if not, if they are diminishing in numbers, then there is hope. Also, gene tech is advancing. In the same way that fetuses can have gene mods, for various inherited traits, (very experimental at the moment) there might be a genetic treatment. (probably very distant.)
So, bluntly, to be practical, I am absolutely fed up living in a human society where a large portion of the population can and do behave like sicko killer primates. They use force and fear to dominate, and make life awful for the rest of us. As a practical issue of survival of our civilisation, we are in a critical situation now. I am wondering if there is a reasonably reliable test system that can weed these people out, from things like the studies that have been done on things like response awareness, brain wiring, etc, and other indicators of Psychopathy and Ice age behavior. Something non-invasive, that can be used "At a distance". Tech to the rescue?. Body language is a great indicator, over time. Just thinking. In the meantime, how many "Cave-Freaks" live near you? LOL!
I went through the stages of grief when it came to the right wing globally and the damage they are doing over a period of years. I'm sick and tired too, worn down, angry, vengeful and all sorts of other things. I work with a far right family, they creep me out, especially their grandson who's a little younger than me. His behavior is horrific and his grandparents dote on him, seeing no wrong. They make fun of climate change believers, think the tax cuts are wonderful and that Obama raised the deficit more than anyone. And no trying to fact check them does no good, its fake news if it doesn't fit their biases. I also have to deal with extended family on every side, even my married side that are right wing lunatics. I could go on forever, I am thoroughly sick of these people myself, but also not particularly impressed with more normal people in my life either, who prefer to hide from dark realities rather than face them. Phew rant over.
Natalie,
I appreciate what you said and I agree it seems so impossible to try to reason with people like you describe. I wonder how education or lack of it plays into this? I found another article in a recent Nat Geo that ties into what Laura F said about psycopathy, altruism and brain structure. I’ve posted the article below.
Zoron - interesting questions especially as to whether the type of human we are discussing is on the rise or decline. I’m not much of an intuitive but I have a curiosity about how much of the opioid crises is taking the kind of people Natalie describes.
I have a hope that this new generation that is rising up has a greater number of what I would term “balanced brain” and higher empathy than the previous generations. If so, then the unbalanced people we see in the world will eventually die off and perhaps change the population to reflect the more empathetic, collaborative-cooperative elements of humanity. But that would be in line with the predictions here about the last part of this century forward. I have hope but not sure I will see the major shift and its impact in my lifetime,lol!
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/08/science-good-evil-charlottesville/
Hi Laura H, thanks for your response. I think my hubby is one of the kindest most empathetic people I know, but everyone has a range of different types of family members. Both of us have right wingers in our extended family, not sure why really. As far as balanced brain goes, I think upbringing has a lot to do with it, your childhood determines how the genes you were born with manifest later in life (my psychiatrist told me this), I think that in the case of some people very bad childhoods can create unbalanced and dangerous characters. But I don't think it has to be caused by a bad childhood, some people are just mean and horrible regardless of their experiences. Education is important but plenty of families do not stress it, or they only stress it to the extent that a person can have a better income with education, not the love of learning for its own sake. I have met many right wingers from various countries who all sneer at intellectual pursuits and learning, they have no interest in it and think they know everything they need to know already. So maybe lack of curiosity is a trait of conservatives. I don't know but this conversation really interests me.
Hi Natalie,
Your comments are excellent. I think their lack of curiosity comes from a deepinferiority complex, a limitation on their base IQ, that they are aware of, and also that that "They" are not empathic, so they have real problems with dealing with other people, and have low "emotional IQ's. ". Simple, really. I would like to see a distribution curve, (Yes! a bell curve) for the distribution of IQ amongst The "Cave Freaks". anyone here old enough to remember Fred Flintstone, LOL?.
Not sure exactly where this topic is going --- I hope it doesn't imply that one group of people is superior to another group. Every single one of us, at one point in our own individual spiritual evolution, was once not so "enlightened". Some are more politically and spiritually evolved than others but we all come from the same source, on a soul level we are all inherently equal. Everyone is a work in progress, even the conservatives. The speculation about their brains, their genetics, their emotional IQs, etc --- it is very interesting. But I hope this conversation doesn't devolve into "us vs. them" and Nazi-like generalizations about superiority/inferiority of certain political groups. Just because one group is simply farther along in the spiritual/ideological journey doesn't make them better/superior than other groups. It's like adults looking down on children. Can the adults claim superiority simply because they "know" better and the child doesn't "know" any better? I don't think so. Children are still developing and learning. Same can be said with conservatives and other groups deemed to be "primitive". Also, if their faults are genetic (low emotional IQs, amygdala size, lack of empathy, etc), how much can we blame them for their faults?
Gigi, the first thing that popped into my mind after reading your comment is "...and the greatest of these is love" from 1Corinthians 13. In these unsettled times, we would all do well to take a step back occasionally and remind ourselves that we are all children of God/Goddess (or whatever force one believes brought us all into existence).
I'm sorry Gigi if what I posted came across that way. I know that feeling smug and superior is easy when dealing with not the brightest people, and I definitely need to be better at humility. One thing I would never do or advocate for is taking away people's rights. I might hate what they have to say, but I support their right to say it.