Could we talk about forgiveness?

I'm going to chime in here, and many of you have heard me say this here before, so feel free to scroll. 

People often have a hard time forgiving for the simple reason that they are confused in what it means. It is erroneous to think that forgiveness means that the action somehow becomes ok. Baloney. Wrong is wrong, and forgiveness doesn't change that. Forgiveness is letting go. Forgiveness is not letting those wrong actions have any further power in your life. It's about healing yourself, not those who have done wrong. Your letting go can have healing power for the offender, but that's not your responsibility. When traumatized, many people can't let go, so the past actions remain a factor in the control of our lives. Letting go puts us squarely back in the driver seat. 

Another stumbling block to forgiveness is accountability. Sometimes it's much easier to forgive someone who has suffered visible repercussions for what they've done. Once they've been 'punished', forgiveness is sometimes easier. It can be hard to forgive those who haven't suffered visible repercussions. Let's dissect this. First, I purposely used the term visible for a reason. Just because we haven't seen the repercussions, doesn't mean that the individual didn't pay a price, it just means we haven't seen it. If a tree falls in the woods and no one witnesses it, did it really fall? So we shouldn't pre-judge whether someone's paid their Karmic debt. Surely, we do know some who have not paid-say the thief who didn't go to jail. They may not have paid legally, but do we know what price they've paid Karmically? We're not the jury and judge to make such decisions. When we know this, it's easier to let go and forgive. Maybe we're not supposed to see what they've paid, or when they're going to pay it. Trust in the universe to apply their rules at the right time, place & circumstances. We aren't the ones writing the lesson plans for that person's life-the universe is. 

Remember, how others treat you is their Karma. How you react is yours. Likewise, how you treat others is your Karma, and how they react is theirs. 

I'm not always good at forgiveness, but I've greatly improved using the above. I figure if I didn't see their repayment, punishment, etc., I wasn't meant to. It may come after they pass, or in the next lifetime. If I'm wrong, what have I lost? For me, it's a win-win. I get to let go, and regain control over an aspect of my life. If I go to my grave and am wrong, they won't ever pay, the peace of mind I got from my belief still makes me a winner in the situation. 

When someone you thought you'd forgiven pushes your buttons (we all have them in our lives) and makes you think you've failed, don't fret. You didn't fail. You stumbled. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again (as the song says).

@jeanne-mayell 

I agree that forgiveness is a path but would like to add that it could be counterproductive to try to force oneself to forgive another when one is not ready or still feeling wounded. As Jeanne and Cindy talk about in different ways, forgiveness can take time and work.

I have several people in my life who repeat behaviors for which I have forgiven them in the past. (some pretty egregious.)  In these two cases "letting go" as Cindy mentions is the best I can do. I do not dwell on the perceived harms nor wish the perpetrators ill, but I do my best to banish them from my thoughts and feelings and that is the best I can do.

I think forgiveness is an individual journey that is unique to each person. It's alot like grief and in some cases is actually grieving the loss of trust to someone else. I also find that sometimes its harder to forgive a wrong to someone I love or care about then to myself. I have something that I consider a betrayal to my grandmother that I still struggle to get beyond even though she has been gone a long time. Also, just like in the grieving process, some people push others to forgive before they are ready. I don't think you can truly reach a true forgiveness until you resolve all the feelings, conflicts and what it is that hurt you the most through whatever happened. I've had some things in my life that I thought I had gotten past and then years later something would happen that brought it all back. For example, there was someone who was a bully when I was in school and I was one of his targets. Its been a couple decades since then and I'm not the same person as I was then. I thought I was way passed all of that but then I saw a mention of this guy on a school newsletter. He had moved to my city and and he was so happy and successful.  It caught me off guard of how betrayed and angry I felt after all these years...where was the karma for him? He hurt so many people and destroyed quite a few lives and he was happy. I didn't realize how deep those feelings still were. It shook me a little that it still had to power to hurt so much.  Its a learning process. The deeper the hurt and anger then the harder it is to let go of it sometimes. It also makes it harder to put yourself out there to others so that you are vulnerable to that hurt again. I often think that forgiveness is more about your own vulnerability and allowing yourself to being open to that again then the actual other person or incident. I also don't think you should ever make someone feel bad if they struggle with forgiving someone else or moving on. Even when you know it would be better, it doesn't invalidate your hurt, anger or struggle.

@cindy Well said. Forgiveness is complicated with many layers but your words simplify the process.

"Remember, how others treat you is their Karma. How you react is yours. Likewise, how you treat others is your Karma, and how they react is theirs." 

@jeanne-mayell 

I can forgive , but I do not forget. 

RE :

When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

--Maya Angelou

@raincloud I totally agree with you that forgiveness can't be forced on anyone. That is why I was careful in my post to keep referring to my own personal path of forgiveness.  For me, forgiveness is a form of inner growth. It happens at our own pace and according to our own values. The ultimate outcome is that we feel more at peace with the world. 

In my view, forgiveness has nothing to do with allowing the perpetrator into our lives.  If the perpetrator is hurtful to us, then we need to protect ourselves.  It has more to do with our internal process. With how we regard that person and whether we can come to peace about the world in which we live that allowed that person to do what they did. 

I also do not see forgiveness as condoning the actions of the perpetrator, or reestablishing a working relationship with them.  To me it is about reaching an understanding of the forces that let that person to do what they did.

So, as Cindy wrote, forgiveness is something we do on our own, within our own hearts, and it has little to do with the other person.  It's our own inner action, our response to something that happened in the world.  

But it does also involve understanding why the person did what they did, and in a sense, forgiving them because we see what made them the way they are. We don't condone their acts.  We don't befriend them necessarily.  But we do "see" how they came to commit those acts. We may even feel sympathy for them in the way that we might feel sympathy if they were are own children who came to commit a bad act.

The thing about trauma and hurt is that you need to accept that it was not your fault. Recognize that bad things happen to everyone. Wolfs and bears exist among us. Little Red Riding Hood was never at fault for her clothing and never were you. Devoid of empathy, many people do prey. How easy it is to blame the victim and keep on preying and preying. You should never accept that. Do not trust any word they thrust into your heart. These are just daggers trying to pin you down, so they can have it easy the next time they attack. Push forward and overcome. You will need this strength. It will build you up.

Some people are at that stage, but I believe that there is still some humanity left in them. Could there be a life without awakening? Could there be existence without the chance to realize your own mistakes, put an end to them and repay the harm you did, in this or the next life? I believe that spirituality allows for redemption. Can a life be wasted? Should anyone be abandoned into the fires and pits? Could not the millennia of human existence provide you with the chance to find yourself and repay your mistakes? I believe with all my heart in the safeguard of the victims, but I cannot abandon a fellow person, no matter how deep he dug himself into. 

Canine love. You get ignored, fed scraps, untreated from disease, beaten up, run over, abandoned and starved to death. And still, you love. You love with all your heart the perpetrator. Unconditionally. Can we learn from a animal? Should we abdicate the throne of absolute human superiority? Yes, you can!

One day the offender will come back to you. And you will see within his heart that he no longer is the person he used to be. He will repay all the harm he did to you and in between tales of how many people he finally learned to help, thanks to you, he will ask for your forgiveness. Then you will realize that your sacrifice was his salvation. A man became the lamb. You, savior. 

@jeanne-mayell 

Well said.

Posted by: @jeanne-mayell

But we do "see" how they came to commit those acts. We may even feel sympathy for them in the way

Nope.  Not a chance. Not for me, anyway. Those who have hurt me in the past do not have and will never again have any place in my life.  As far as I am concerned, they do not exist.

@tgraf66 

Same here. In the past I felt like I was guilted into forgiving people who harmed me - by relatives, therapists, etc. And so I did. The harm continued. So I UNforgave them, including the ones who had died in the meantime.

My current  belief is: Many toxic behaviors may not entirely be the fault of the perpetrator, however if you are honest and tell them the harm they are causing and they do nothing to change, that is unforgivable.

I agree with Jeanne, forgiveness is an inner work. When I was younger, I often became resentful and jealous toward the people who wronged me when good things happened to them. I hated the feelings and asked my psychologist how I could change that. She said it beautifully... she said once I have achieved a sense of well-being, I will no longer feel that way. So, for the next two decades, I work on my own well-being and find myself in peace. It does not mean I forget. Forgiveness comes from knowing those people can no longer hurt me and they have no power over me. When I think of them, I have no negative emotions, which is a great place to be. I highly recommend it.

I think there are all good answers and very valid points of view here.

I think the best way for me to summarise it, is to say that you have to do what feels right for you.

I don't think there is any one solution that fits all.

I think life is full of lessons. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes light, sometimes dark, sometimes violent, sometimes love, sometimes rich, sometimes poor.

We are all learning, including the people hurting others - their lesson might be to learn from you not to be that way again to other people.

I don’t know if my story helps at all but I grew up with parents who didn’t see me and see the world through a different lens’ but bottom line I didn’t feel loved or seen for who I am and didn’t learn my value. I then married an abusive man, had kids w him and had enough when they were one and 4. He had had a rough childhood and it was very easy to see how he came to be the way he was. When I left I was free and I did not blame him at all, I was able to start a new life and cut off the weight. I was also able to see that the obstacles in my life like my parents and my ex and opportunities for learning I choose before this incarnation to help me learn the lesson of valuing myself and learning to be vulnerable. I am grateful to have seen that these difficulties were lessons on my path and not anyone actually harming me. Forgiveness is not hard when you don’t take it all too seriously and when you trust God without doubt. A lot of this is just about fear and when I was ready to trust God completely fear stopped being an issue.

The anger and negativity of holding a grudge (i.e. not forgiving) to me is like drinking poison and expecting that to have an effect on the person I haven't forgiven. It doesn't hurt them, it is self harming. It took me a long time to realize this. 

I also agree with Jeanne, learning why I was treated in a way that requires forgiveness was helpful for a number of reasons. Hurt people turn around and hurt others. They lash out. 

Many of my family have hurt me, but in digging into why has taught me to understand why they do it. Understanding it doesn't make what they have done (and still do) right. Understanding it helps me deal with the aftermath. It makes me know when I'm wasting my time and energy trying to teach those who cannot learn. It helps me to rid myself of the aftereffects of their abuses. It helps me to avoid becoming like them. I can see that there are narcissists in the family, why they became that way, and that they cannot be cured. That doesn't make their behavior right, but I now understand that it's about them hating themselves more than they hate me. I can understand that I have to cut contact when necessary, and how to do it. I can feel pity for them, realizing that it must be awful to dislike yourself so much. Pity and condoning are very different. By looking into the why's of it all, I can also teach others who find themselves in similar situations.

I have a sister whom I believe has histrionic personality disorder (my diagnosis, not a professionals). She's the one whom I've mentioned who told everyone in the family years ago she had a terminal illness, and now that she's outlived that prognosis, has to deal with us knowing she lied. Can you imagine how much you must dislike yourself that you need to go to such extremes to get attention? I could write a book about her twisted and abusive behaviors to all of us in the family (tho I was her favorite target). I no longer feel anger towards her, but pity. I can't imagine how tortured her soul must be, nor do I want to. How she's treated me is her Karma to work out. She craves attention, but she gets none from me. I won't feed her disorder. I can understand my therapist's noting that each of my family, emotionally unhealthy as they were, were doing the best they could. If they could have done better, they would have. If they could have been cured of their emotional disabilities, they would have gotten treatment. Their illnesses are such that they won't believe they are ill, so they can't be treated. I can let their behaviors be their Karma, instead of trying to fix them or punishing them, or carrying their abuses towards me as my burden. I can understand they loved me in their own way, even tho their way wasn't healthy -especially for me. That is what I've gained via forgiveness. 

I also look for my role in the abuse. Sometimes there is a fraction of responsibility I need to take and/or correct. For example, having a parent who's a narcissist, and an abusive sibling made me an obvious target for others. I was raised to be the family scapegoat, so others with abusive tendencies would pick up on it. It's why I married a narcissist. It was the dynamic I associated with family. It was what I was used to. Once I figured that out, I have become less likely to bring in more abusive types into my circle. When I still attracted some, again, I dug to find out why. I changed, so this shouldn't have happened again, right? Wrong. I'm now strong, not submissive. Little did I know before the research that I'll still attract them, but for different reasons and 'roles' in their lives. Now I'm the type they want to associate with for appearances’ sake. If I hadn't tried to figure out why, I'd still be in that endless cycle. 

Think of all the collective trauma the people of the world have had passed down. Until we all take a look at why, we'll never fix the problem. This is why at this point in time we have so many hate groups showing themselves. I was the family scapegoat because I pointed out double standards, bad behaviors, etc. How dare I? Collectively, we're starting to try and gain equality for all, and for those still carrying trauma and emotional illnesses they've not dealt with, this will push some major buttons, exacerbating situations, forcing others to react. Those of us who are light workers (many are abuse survivors) are older souls. Therefore, we react differently to the abuse and handle our aftermath in ways that are healthier, but not easily comprehended by those who are younger souls. A three-year-old is going to throw a temper tantrum when they don't get their way, whereas a teen will argue and eventually sulk or accept that they haven't gotten their way (yes, some, heaven forbid, still act out). Remember, many who are abusers are more likely younger souls who haven't learned as much as the older souls of the world. That's why, as people, we forgive kids with greater ease than we forgive adults who "should know better". We forget that age isn't just about the physical body. Someone who is 100 earth years could still be an infant in soul age, yet it can be very obvious when a youngster is an old soul. 

I go back and forth on the ease of forgiveness.  I think I land somewhere around where many of you have - forgive but don't always forget.  An excellent example of this was an interpersonal conflict between a colleague downstate that played out publically (literally on the front page of several newspapers thanks to her cousin being a journalist for the Detroit News) over a project I once led.  I honestly and truthfully was blindsided by the attack and to this day go out of my way to avoid this person (who is thankfully no longer where she was).  I'm finally at a place these many years later where I don't even wish to see the karmic payoff for her actions - She simply exists in my memory as a person to avoid and stay away from.  I'm not certain I've forgiven her for what she put my family and me through or her intent to end my career completely over grant funds that came to my org instead of hers.  I don't wish her ill?  And the universe took care of me throughout it - the project still exists, my career continued with just that small speed bump.  

But smaller things - I try to let those go as they occur.  Life is simply too short sometimes.

Everyone here is very brave for sharing. This is not an easy topic.  But it is good to see and discuss all the different perspectives for others to see, as it may also help somebody who is reading.

Posted by: @tgraf66

...Those who have hurt me in the past do not have and will never again have any place in my life.  As far as I am concerned, they do not exist.

@tgraf66, I have come to the same place in my own life, that a perpetrator has no place in my life, except they continue to exist in my memory. I cannot erase my memories.  I can transform the reaction I had from the hurt by finding meaning from the hurt, so the hurt can become a trigger for something good, like the grit that makes a pearl. 

But I cannot get to the point that the person no longer exists for me, except in one way: I can grow past them, i.e., reach a point of peace within myself, and then they no longer bug me. They still exist though, but they don't trouble my mind any more. 

Now I'm not saying I've gotten over all my hurts.  On days when I'm overworked or rundown, when I feel vulnerable and hurt, I don't feel forgiving. But that forgiveness is under my control. In fact, I can gauge my need for self care, and my self neglect, by how unforgiving I'm feeling towards others. 

So those who hurt me in ways that I have overcome don't pop up in my mind anymore. I have no interest in socializing with them too. And I also tend not to run into them or their ilk. So in that way, they no longer exist. 

That's because I'm flying in a different airspace now so we don't connect. 

But if I fall back in that old airspace of vulnerability, of feeling I'm not smart enough, not attractive enough, not nice enough, not deserving enough, not articulate enough, or just plain not enough, then the perpetrators do pop up in my psyche.  And I might actually run into them, or someone who reminds me of them, and I become agitated all over again. 

Then there's something else I've noticed over the years.  It's not always true, but there is some truth in the old adage: 

What we can't forgive, we become. 

If we can't come to peace about someone who hurt us, then somehow, some way, our unrest will show up and our ever present id, that animal in our psyche, may try to even the score with them via someone who reminds us of how the original perpetrator made us feel. That's when things get messy.

Posted by: @jeanne-mayell

If we can't come to peace about someone who hurt us, then somehow, some way, our unrest will show up and our ever present id,

I have come to peace about them.  They no longer exist to me, therefore they can no longer cause me pain, and I am at peace.