@allyn @jeanne-mayell Trump is down 20 points among white evangelical voters. Either his extraordinary crassness finally became too much, or they have given up on their Faustian deal with him to get more conservatives into judgeships. Any thoughts?
That is exactly what I thought. He was calling for violence from his base of gun fanatics to silence the resisters.
I believe you are right in both respects. To the evangelical voters who disliked Trump and Clinton and yet chose Trump in 2016, many of them have become appalled by his behavior and foresee that if evangelicals continue to do so, they will go down with him.
Remember that many Evangelicals belief that there is a group of people out there (whom they refer to as "liberals"). They feel that these liberals hate their guts and will do whatever it takes to make America a secular country. They feel that the liberals unfairly accuse them of being prejudice and/or bigoted because evangelicals believe in the tradition family model (aka-women stay home to watch kids, that women should not be preachers, etc.) and due to evangelicals' opposition to gay and transgender rights.
While I do not doubt that there is a portion of the country who do indeed hate the Evangelicals no matter what they do or don't do, the problem doesn't lie with them. Instead, a small portion of evangelical voters are starting to realize that the problem lies with the vast majority of the population in America who tend to be neutral. Normally, these majority voters (many of whom are Christians themselves but don't always attend service regularly), are a "live and let live" group. They are comfortable with being in contact with people with other belief systems and believe in individual rights. These voters are typically the ones who say "hey, if this person wants to lead a prayer to God at school, and if another person wants to roll out their prayer mat and face the direction towards Mecca while they pray to Allah, I am not offended. The more the merrier!"
The biggest problem that a small portion of evangelical voters are waking up to is the fact that, by supporting Trump so enthusiastically, they have made themselves the enemies of the majority voters. For decades, evangelical voters have pounced on the sins of so-called liberals while idolizing those whom they view as "Godly." But by embracing Trump, they have ruined their credibility. Any majority voters who would normally be sympathetic to their cause (such as letting pray in school and religious liberty) now see Evangelicals as the forerunners of Gilead from "The Handmaiden's Tale." They see evangelicals continuously pass laws trying to bar abortion rights while not making exceptions for rape or incest (a position that many majority voters, including those who lean pro-life, see as reasonable). They see evangelicals preach about how they have the moral high road by trying to save the unborn yet constantly try to destroy resources that would help those children once they are born (medicare for children, food stamps, etc.)
While this is troubling in and of itself, the evangelicals total embrace of Trump will very likely lead to the end of the evangelical movement as we know it. They supported Trump when he (1) mocks and abuses women, (2) locks children in cages, seperates them from their families, and tries to get rid of protections for 800,000 children just so he could deport them, (3) shows no compassion whatsoever for the obvious systematic racism in the US and goes so far as to embrace white supremists, (4) goes out of his way to encourage his supporters to threaten others with guns and violence, (5) taunts people whom have died and/or have medical afflictions, (6) ignored the warnings of his medical experts concerning covid 19 and thus lost a month and a half time that could have been used to get supplies in place, (6) uses the military to violently force peaceful protestors away while he goes across the street to hold up a Bible for a photo-op (note: the Bible wasn't even his, as he had to use the one Ivanka brought in her handbag), and (7) the continuous way he lies, taunts, and corrupts everything.
Because of this (and a million other reasons, but I can't take the rest of the year to list them all here), evangelicals are now the religious group in America who is looked upon unfavorable by the majority of the country. People who were former evangelicals have left the group entirely and no longer refer to themselves as Evangelicals.(myself included, but I left the church long before Trump due to various positions that Evangelicals took which I firmly believe is against God's teachings). Evangelicals have aligned themselves with Trump so much that they are now viewed as having the same values he does. Basically, by aligning themselves with Trump, evangelical voters are now viewed by the majority of the voters in this country as being racist, sexist, hypocritical, cruel, and power hungry. After all, if Evangelicals are willing to embrace Trump (someone who represents the opposite of what they claim they support), then what is to stop evangelicals from one day taking it further and making American into a real-life Gilead?
So I think this reality has sunk in to a few Evangelical voters. But most will not, because they believe that they are destined to be hated by the world (one of the signs of the coming End Times, when Christians are persecuted for being Christians and hated by the world, only to be rewarded in Heaven). What they fail to realize is that they are acting in a way to bring that hatred on themselves. You don't pull a knife on someone and then whine that they assaulted you by pushing you to the ground! A bully who terrorizes the rest of his classmates should not feel that he is a victim when someone finally stands up to him and calls him out. So I doubt many will defect from Trump. They have become the false prophets that Revelations have warned about, and any fallout from their decision to support Trump will likely last for at least a generation, if not longer. In short, they betrayed God's message on earth, and they will face the consequences of those actions.
Then there is the other group that voted for Trump due to his promise to have justices on the supreme court as their primary motivation. While some of them are buying into Trump's argument about how he needs to be re-elected to pack the court even more, some will point out that Trump's own justice, Gorsuch, voted for gay rights this week. If a justice that Trump supported went against him, then why wouldn't the next one, (or two, or more)?
It is too early to say if this trend will continue. My advice is to wait for the case concerning Trump's taxes. If the Supreme Court rules against him, he will go on his usual rampage. But then the Evangelicals will have to consider whether or not Trump can deliver anything when he is being investigated for crimes and that the Supreme Court (which he claims he can deliver to Evangelicals), won't save him from prosecution. (Remember that many people, Democrats and Republicans, are suffering from Trump fatigue and will vote against him simply so they won't have to read his tweets and/or deal with his scandals anymore.) Also, the abortion case still pending could either demoralize Evangelicals or incite them to vote, depending on the outcome.
Personally, I believe that a decision against Trump on the abortion case and the tax case would destroy whatever iron support he has over Evangelicals. Accept for a tax cut for the rich, Trump has no bills or acts that he has done to warrant giving him another chance. I don't think evangelicals will be galvanized to vote in November for someone who lost their cases and who will face more years of scandals and/or criminal investigations. While some have drunk the cool-aid, others will stay home. So let us all send light/prayers that the Supreme Court makes the right decisions on these last two cases so that Trump's chances of igniting his base are stopped before they even begin.
Trevor Noah said something funny but true the other night, I don't recall exact words so I'm paraphrasing:
In any other country, in Africa, we wouldn't call the people showing up with big guns to peaceful protests and public spaces "self appointed militias", we'd call them rebel forces, as in "look, those rebel forces are trying to overthrow something."
I confess I'm one of those people who dislikes the evangelical movement, worldwide. Their fixation with end times nonsense is so damaging in so many ways. I used to be a live and let live type, but now I'm rabidly anti-public-religion and pro-secularism. I really believe that the less religion is mixed in with government the better it is for all the people living under that government, and I apply this to all the organized religions. I resent how the evangelicals in this country have succeeded in eroding the separation of church and state based on their belief system. I think all churches should be taxed, that none of them should have gotten any CV19 payroll protection plan money (they did! Even my former UU church got money, which pissed me off and made me glad I have left even that level of organized religion behind me).
Near where I live there is a GIANT cross on the top of a small mountain (Mt. Soledad). There have been lawsuits back and forth about it because it's on public land, yet it remains in place. If someone wants a giant cross in their front yard, I have no problem with it (in fact it's a signal to me that I'm probably not going to be their new friends), but it annoys me to have to look at something that taxpayers have paid for that advocates for one particular faith.
As for prayer in public schools - nope nope and nope, I don't care which religion, it doesn't belong there. The "moment of silence" has turned into that slippery slope. If someone is so attached to their faith that they need to pray during the school day, they should seek out a private faith based school or homeschool, if they can't wait until they get home to pray. I'm one of those people that wants "under god" removed from the pledge of allegiance and "in god we trust" taken off the money. I recently found a quarter that had a giant templar cross on the back! Something about the San Antonio missions, but wtf? Let the Vatican put crosses on their money, it doesn't belong on ours.
Despite all this, I'm happy to send love and light and enlightened knowledge to SCOTUS, and also have fingers and toes crossed on these next two big decisions. I have no issue with anyone actually praying formally for the same! "Go light a candle!" -- my grandma
Enough about me, as for the evangelicals, my concern is that while they may be starting to retreat from this fight right now, they'll regroup and the next time around we really will end up in Gilead.
@allyn Thank you so much for this. I'm going to have to read it a couple of times to make sure I understand all of your points. Some anthropologists who studied evangelicals concluded that they are more about protecting their culture than they are about following God's word. I always thought that the way in which Jimmy Carter disrupted his own church was a good example of this. The ones I know personally post a lot of "false witness" especially against Hillary, Nancy Pelosi, and President Obama. They traffic in right wing propaganda by posting and sharing some really outrageous and hateful stuff. Believe it or not, one just posted yesterday a "fake copy of Obama's birth certificate proving he was born in Kenya." The proof was that you cannot fake documents like this anymore. But I digress. After engaging them repeatedly and introducing them to Snopes, Politifact, etc., I've noticed that they never apologize or take down their hate posts, but they always follow with another post against abortion as if to reassure themselves that they are righteous. Joining you in sending light to the Supreme Court.
@laura-f Sorry Laura, but there will always be prayer in schools. "Please, Lord, let there be a substitute today." "Please, Lord, let me pass this test." "Please, Lord, get the teacher to postpone the test." "Please, Lord, let that cute boy look at me." etc.
Every day and in every classroom!
@allyn @jeanne-mayell Trump is down 20 points among white evangelical voters. Either his extraordinary crassness finally became too much, or they have given up on their Faustian deal with him to get more conservatives into judgeships. Any thoughts?
The thing about a Faustian bargain is that there is no exist clause, no take backs. You make your deal with the Devil, brother—he owns you.
So, when you cry in anguish over your regret—as every dealmaker in every such story inevitably does—he just smiles and picks his teeth and reminds you that you put those shackles around your very own neck.
Federal Judge does not think he can stop Bolton’s book from coming out
A federal judge expressed doubt Friday he could stop the upcoming publication of the book by former national security adviser John Bolton.
"The horse, as we used to say in Texas, seems to be out of the barn," Judge Royce Lamberth of the DC District Court, said during a hearing Friday. "It certainly looks difficult to me about what I can do about those books all over the country."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/19/politics/john-bolton-book-hearing/index.html
Don't believe the polls. Remember how the polls said Clinton would win.
I keep saying this, and I hate to be "that guy", but the Orange One and his minions will pull every dirty trick they can come up with to push it their way. We need to not get complacent.
Yes, but polls look at the popular vote which she did win. What's truly hopeful now is that the margins are much greater for Biden than they were for Hillary. Hang in there.
That's all well and good, but the popular vote means little when the EC is the final arbiter.
Barr and T are busy trying to shield T and company
Washington (CNN) - In a fast-escalating crisis Friday night, Attorney General William Barr tried to oust Geoffrey Berman, the powerful US attorney for the Southern District of New York who has investigated a number of associates of President Donald Trump, but Berman defied him by refusing to step down.
Berman response
"I have not resigned, and have no intention of resigning, my position, to which I was appointed by the Judges of the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York. I will step down when a presidentially appointed nominee is confirmed by the Senate," Berman said. "Until then, our investigations will move forward without delay or interruption."
The timing of the move, announced after 9 p.m. ET, immediately raised questions about the circumstances regarding Berman's departure.
Any forced ouster of Berman is likely to draw scrutiny inside the US attorney's office and among career prosecutors. He has been the US attorney for Manhattan since 2018, and under his leadership, his office prosecuted Trump's former attorney Michael Cohen, is investigating top Trump confidante Rudy Giuliani and indicted the former New York mayor's associates Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman.