@moonbeam, Even so, I love my country as I am sure you love your dear Netherlands. This is my home and I love this land, this great earth, and the spirit of the American people. Whenever I return to the States from outside, I want to drop down and kiss the ground. I hope never to leave. I love Canada too. It is like a second homeland for me, but every time I return from Canada, driving across the border into Vermont, I feel such exhilaration at being home again. The fresh air and open space, the great trees, and my country men and women come first in my heart.
@Runestone, wooee, it is so nice to hear from you! I gobble up your every word.
It is curious when the GOP tolerates some rogue behaviors but not others. It's of course all about which behaviors hurt their image. But what intrigues me is why the enablers are okay with most of the behaviors but every once in a blue moon, they will put their foot down, as McConnell has with Richard Burr. Today the Senate Intelligence Committee chairman has stepped down from the Committee temporarily while being investigated for insider trading. He had used the intelligence about Covid to dump thousands of dollars worth of stock while publicly denying there was any virus threat to this country.
@moonbeam, I've never been to Utrecht, but many years ago as I was traveling through Greece, I met a man who was from there. Utrecht (and the Netherlands in general) sounds really lovely. If memory serves me, he and his father were in a homeopathic medical practice together. That was the first time I became acquainted with homeopathy/naturopathy, which a few years later I incorporated into my healing and wellness when such practices became more accepted here. A sign of progress!
I’ve always wanted to visit NL. Perhaps once this pandemic passes, I will.
I hate to say it, but bullies like Trump need to be made an example of.
When I was a child, I was bullied because I was unable to talk. No matter what I did, it didn't stop. I tried being nice to the bullies, but that just encouraged them. I tried ignoring them to no avail. I reported them to teachers. Those few who did try to do something about it could not be with me all the time, and the bullies made sure that I knew of their displeasure afterwards.
I will not dwell on the matter, as it is a sore subject for me, as it showed me early that some people just naturally dwell in darkness and love human suffering.
One day, one of the most vicious bullies started on me about my speech problems (I could speak by then, but was unable to pronounce some words correctly. This caused me to be very hesitant to speak at all). My patience had reached its end on that day, and I snapped. I started taunting the girl about her weight. Normally, I would never taunt a person about their appearance, but I was in a foul mood and my spirit was almost torn apart by all the unjust treatment I received. So I lashed out.
On that day, I treated her the way she treated me. As she had played upon my insecurities and pain, I picked the one thing that I knew cause her pain, and I didn't relent.
Sadly, what I did caused her pain, and she cried bitterly as the other kids watched. Several of her "friends" (aka-fellow bullies) tried to verbally attack me for making her cry. I was shaking with anger by this time, and I asked them why it was ok to laugh at me but not at them. I then proceeded to let forth all the anger I had at the time, and tore them apart verbally as I stood my ground.
The main bully went to the teacher and reported me, of course. And the teacher talked to me about it, only to hear me coldly and calmly ask her why she felt that this girl's complaint was worth her time but my complaints were ignored. She tried to defend herself by saying that she did talk to the bully about her behaviors (I don't know if she did or not). Nevertheless, I told the teacher "Well, if you did talk to her, it didn't do any good, so why bother talking to me?" I then told the teacher that I would no longer allow people to get away with hurting me, and I would not hold back if I was bullied again. I then told the teacher that the only way she was going to stop the situation from escalating was that she get the girl and her friends to stop bullying me, because I would never hold back again, and I would never stay silent again.
Needless to say, the main bully never approached me again. She never talked to me except to look away from me and cringe, as though she was the one who was bullied for years and not me. The others tried to bully me a few times later, but I learned quickly that I had a sharp tongue and quick wit, and used those weapons at my disposal as much as possible. They had bullied me for so long that their words no longer bother me, but my responses of pointing out their flaws cause them quite a bit of emotional grief, and they soon stopped as well as they sought out easier prey.
At first, I fought with guilt over this, because I don't like hurting people or making them cry. No one with a conscience does. But ultimately, I learned that when I made an example of the main bully, very few bothered me after that. I was free from the constant harassment.
The incident saddens me to this day. No, I don't regret what I did that day. What I regret is the fact that I learned that sometimes kindness and understanding doesn't stop people from treating others bad. Sometimes, they need to experience the pain they cause others to really understand that what they do is wrong. But sometimes, these people still don't develop empathy. So the only thing left is through fear. By making an example out of that bully on that day, I made the rest of the bullies fear me, and it was that fear that I would retaliate that kept them away. Further, the people in charge (aka-the teacher) didn't bother to deal with the problem until they realized that their control was in jeopardy. Just as the Republicans don't care when Trump bullies people or when conservatives threaten Democratic governors.
For Republicans, if a conservative threatens Obama or shoots Democratic representatives, then it must be the liberals' fault for "trampling on the person's rights." But if a liberal goes and shoots at them at their baseball game? Lawlessness! How dare those Democrats rile their base up!
I fear that unless these people are taken out of power (and made examples of via charges and/or investigations), then they will continue to bully the rest of us. Sometimes, people need to feel the same pain they inflict on others because it is the only way for them to respect the rules that govern all of us. It is so easy to disregard government and the rules of respect until you find yourself under attack.
These protesters want to fight against orders necessary to save lives. But if they learned that they would be denied health care if they contracted the virus, I guarantee these protests would stop. After all, it is not as though Republicans can argue that universal health care is a right! They have fought for years against expanding health care, so why should they care if the doctors suddenly said "we refuse to treat the protestors"?
I am sure my comments will be viewed as cruel and dark. I am sorry for that. Most times I am a very friendly and peaceable person. I even go out of my way to avoid hitting snakes on the road! I try to never hurt another and to be respectful and kind. But if I am bullied and/or witness bullying, it angers me. (And yes, I know the difference between a disagreement and bullying. Believe me, I couldn't survive the courtroom if I didn't know the difference.) I struggle with the resentment I feel towards bullies, as they have left a mark on my soul far worse than words or blows ever could. In essence, they destroyed my faith in humanity, and thus I have a difficult time with trust.
Trump is a bully. These Republicans are bullies. And sometimes the only way to deal with a bully is to make an example out of the ringleaders and make them beg for civility and respect to be given to all. Sometimes it is only through experiencing the pain one inflicts on others that change can actually occur. So maybe Democrats, Never-Trump Republicans, and Independents need to show them that there are consequences for their actions by making them afraid of us. Maybe doctors in these states need to do a press conference where they say that they will not put their lives at risks for these demonstrators who are advocating for the state to open before the safety measures are in place (thus risking hundreds and thousands of lives). Maybe some people should ask Fox News why they think that threats to the media should not be used on them. Maybe more people should stand up to these Trump supporters and attack them with cruel words. They call us baby killers and socialists, while we try to be respectful of their points of view? Heck no!
Just today, I was in a store buying groceries when a Trump supporter asked me why I would support Democrats and Socialists, as they love abortion and are baby killers (I am summarizing here, because what he really said are some things that should not be written here, because you guys are ladies and gentlemen). This confrontation was brought on because I was wearing a mask in public. Yes, you read this correctly. All because I wore a face mask in public because I feared catching the virus. This was what caused this man to confront me.
As if that wasn't bad enough, this Trump supporter was a former client of mine that I saved from serving six years in jail (the evidence was illegally obtained, and I got it thrown out). Nevertheless, he holds a grudge because I refused to call his ex-wife to the stand to question her about how many men she was sleeping with (it wasn't relevant to the case).
Needless to say, I didn't take too kindly to being verbally attacked, so I asked him why it was so important for him to care about abortion. He said it was to protect all the babies. I then said "Why? Do you like them young?"
Yes, that was a very, very, very low blow. And no, this guy isn't a pedophile (at least, not that I know of). But it caused the Trump supporter all sorts of emotional distress. No! He didn't think of babies that way! He then went on the defensive, but I told he I didn't care what he thought, so long as he and his "kind" kept away from me. Then I left.
But seriously, why must I put up with abuse from Trump supporters? Especially from one who owes me his freedom? As you can see, he is a bully who is unchanged when I was kind and respectful to him, so I used his weapon against him. He called me a baby killer, so I suggested that the only reason he cared about babies (but not about what happens after they are born) is for reasons that are less than pure. And no, I am not ashamed by it. I have a right to walk down the street and not be harassed for wearing a mask! If you are cruel enough to treat someone who saved your freedom with harassment and insults, then be prepared to get it served back to you!
No, I am not advocating that we call every anti-abortion person a pedophile. Some people genuinely care about the unborn and see both sides of the issue. I don't have a problem with them. But I refuse to let Republicans use abortion as a weapon against me and as an excuse to treat me as though I was less than them. I am not suggesting that we use violence or force on these people. But I am suggesting that we need to shock them. We need to stop with the "well, I disagree with your opinion, but I respect it" mindset. We need to just say "no, you are wrong." No more debates. No more trying to reason with them. Just flat out tell them that they are wrong. Period. Be unwavering and stop making excuses for them. And if they get nasty and cruel, give them a small taste of their own medicine.
This is not the best way to deal with Trump and his followers. But right now it is the only way we have to decrease their power until we get to the election. We need to make them fear us for a change. Heck, there are millions more of us than there are of them! Probably more so now, since they drove the good Republicans from their ranks. But people will side with the strong, so we must prove we are strong. No more respectful silence and patience under mistreatment. This may be the only way to wake some of these Trump supporters up without undue bloodshed. They are more than willing to threaten a few people with guns and words, but if they see hundreds of people who are angry with them and their views, suddenly they don't feel as brave anymore.
Again, my views may be misinterpreted. I am not advocating violence or harassing Trump supporters as they walk down the street. But I am advocating being firm with Trump supporters when they attack you. That it is ok to use insults back at them instead of "aiming high." Because sometimes that is the only language these bullies understand.
@jeanne-mayell The reason McConnell put his foot down with Burr has less to do with rooting out corruption than it does with stopping Burr as head of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Burr was about to make public a report proving tRump's collusion with Russia to throw the election in '16. A tRump toady was installed in Burr's place, guaranteeing that report won't see the light of day.
Ha! if you were moving to B.C., Canada by land, I would be a convenient stop on the main route north through Washington State. Seriously, I’m just about 3 hours from Canada. This_could_work. On the other hand, should you just happen to be in the Puget Sound, you know, with no other particular destination/escape in mind, you could pull into our local harbor. Either here or San Diego, baby, we can have a West Coast chapter meeting. And if we need to run to a border, the borders aren’t too far away.
@allyn I wouldn't disagree. However, consultation with my own moral core brings up some issues.
I am going to say some dangerous and uncomfortable things on the way to making my point.
There is growing evidence that this administration's activities are deliberately designed to cause Americans harm and death. (See the recent Atlantic article about how Trump was against Covid until he figured out who was dying.) I've read the theorist Steve Bannon espouses, Julius Evola, who was one of the early architects of Nazi ideology. If you compare Evola's works with tRump's actions, there are direct links, particularly to the treatment of 'lesser races.'
According to Just War Theory, fighting back against tRumpismo with violence **would be acceptable.** In much the same way the US fought against Naziism to secure the safety and lives of Europeans, a violent response to secure the lives of children in concentration camps at the border, to preserve the lives of our elderly from Covid, and to stop tRumpanzees in their random executions of black and brown people **would be warranted.** Prevention of atrocities justifies war.
I am very, very angry at members of this Administration who have been complicit with the inaction leading to, as of this writing, 85,898 dead Americans. That is more American casualties than during the Vietnam war, and most of the way to as many lost in WWI. Not only has this Administration been complicit--they have been actively causing casualties by hijacking PPE from hospital shipments, leaving medical staff without protection--and then profiteering from the sales of their hijacked booty.
These are not simply corrupt acts. These are war crimes. Action is demanded of us.
HOWEVER. When I contemplate Just War Theory, and how it might validate a strike at the Administration with equal force (85k+ Americans dead, remember) to stop the carnage, I do not feel right about it.
What i fear in treating the Bully the same way he has treated us--is becoming him.
While I fully grant you, Allyn, that the only way you could get your Bully to back off was to strike back with equal or superior force, the subtext in your description of events leads me to believe you do not feel completely ok about it, either. To end your torment, you had to become a tormentor. That's a morally ambiguous place, and I empathize.
Just so, to end our National Bullying requires action. Non-violence is an insufficient tool to stop a psychopathic Bully with no moral core or empathy. Use of equal force is no answer either, for then we risk becoming bullies ourselves.
What holds me in place is my moral core, my sense that any response stemming from anger, any pursuit of vengeance for our Covid Casualties would lead to a moral injury.
So I am searching for an effective Third Way. So far, all my Spidey-Sense tells me is that the resolution will be through collective action, but what that action will be has yet to be revealed.
If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, I'd love to hear them!
-R-
Yes please!
Wine in one direction, tequila in the other, either will do!
A very long time ago, I went with hubby to Seattle for his work. We took a leisure day to drive up through Whidbey (sp?) Island and ended up in Anacortes. I remember we also stopped at a big waterfall, but I can't remember the name of it. It was so pretty there. I liked but didn't love Seattle, although I do still have a framed photo of a sea lion that I took at the aquarium on a wall.
Great to hear from you!
If you figure out a Third Way - or what in Buddhism might be called a Way of the Middle, do let us know. I haven't been able to figure it out either. Pacifism doesn't work, so I became an activist, but that hasn't worked so far either, certainly atrocities are not being prevented. Like it or not, "a just war" may be the only short term solution, kind of like setting a controlled burn in a forest to prevent a worse fire.
Bannon, Miller, et al are Cryptofascists. You can't defeat them by turning the other cheek or writing sternly worded letters, nor by voting. I'm hoping for a white knight - another country to step up and take this all to The Hague and the U.N., but so far none have appeared.
I lose a little more hope daily...
We can shorten the the tenure of all judicial appointments by legislatively doing away with lifetime appointments for federal judgeships, including Supreme Court justices.
Regrettably, this is not possible under the Constitution as it currently stands.
"Article III of the Constitution governs the appointment, tenure, and payment of Supreme Court justices, and federal circuit and district judges. These judges, often referred to as 'Article III judges,' are nominated by the president and confirmed by the U.S. Senate.
Article III states that these judges “hold their office during good behavior,” which means they have a lifetime appointment, except under very limited circumstances. Article III judges can be removed from office only through impeachment by the House of Representatives and conviction by the Senate." ( https://www.uscourts.gov/judges-judgeships/about-federal-judges )
Therefore, any change to Article III would require a Constitutional amendment.
Or, states and governmental officials can simply ignore the rulings of ultra-conservative judges that are too out of touch with the direction America is heading in. The courts are only powerful insofar as our institutions are willing to carry out their wills. If enough of the American collective is telling out-of-touch judges, "screw you," then those judges' authority is effectively nullified (think of jury nullification, writ large).
While I understand where you're coming from, there are many reasons why this would be a Very Bad Idea (tm). As Lindsey Graham said about the Orange One's insistence that Mr. Obama be called to testify in the Senate, "Be careful what you wish for," meaning, of course, that if Mr Obama could be called to testify now, then the Orange One could conceivably be called to testify after he is out of office, which I am sure he would not want. My point is that what is done on one side (i.e., ignore the conservative judges' rulings) can and will be done on the other side as well, and the rulings of the more progressive judges could be ignored with just as much impunity.
@ Jeanne I totally understand your love for your country, and it is only normal that you do! Not only it is the place of your birth, your life energies are literally part of the soil, and America has much much to love. One of the reasons I studied English is my love of US history! I just hope that the US will get back on its feet. Not only for all of you, but for Earth. Russia and China will step up, if America doesn’t, and I somehow doubt that will be good for progression.
@ Laura F. That does sound lovely! Most ppl stop at Amsterdam, but indeed Utrecht is a little less crowded by tourists. I live close to Deventer, which is further east of Utrecht. It is smaller than Utrecht, but just as charming. It was used in the 70s movie ‘A Bridge to Far’. The entire inner city is medieval still. It's amazing to walk around a place where people still live in house built 600 years ago;-)
@ Deetoo, that sounds like a meeting that was meant to be! Natural healing had its ups and downs, but it has been steadily growing to have a larger influence on society. One of the reasons I like Druidery so much. It is very much in synch with the world around us.
If any of you ladies ever end up in The Netherlands, do let me know, I’d be happy to show you around!
@ Allyn, first I have to say that I admire your eloquence! Although I should not say so as a teacher, but I agree with you. I wish I could give you a big, warm hug. No one should carry the anguish of being bullied as a child (or an adult!). It causes scars that never heal.
Bullies cannot always be reasoned with. Children do this out of ignorance. Adults do not. However, I think you can go high instead of low, by using superior arguments without hurting anyone. You posted a long list of rebuttals to Trump fanatics some time ago. I think that is still going high. It doesn’t hurt ppl, just corners them with facts and that is brilliant. The Orange One is another matter of course… he cannot be reasoned with and has to be taken out in a different manner.
@ Runestoneone. I agree. It has taken me 20 years to get back to intuitive ‘predictions’, but I have had a strong feeling that the Orange One didn’t act because New York was hit hard. It was a calculated attempt to get rid of his opposition. Of course, that now blows up in his face, but all those people are still dead. It boggles the mind how anyone can be so detached from humanity.
@jeanne-mayell America is talking it out......we are listening.... we are integrating.....because WE CAN! MY ADVISE TO ANYONE OUT THERE......NEVER BET AGAINST AMERICA!
Today is May 15 and I know people were talking about something happening on May 15. We’ll some hackers hacked into a US entetainment law firm has doubled their ransom because they have info on Trump.
A hacker group that stole 756 gigabytes of data from one of top US entertainment law firms has doubled their ransom to $42 million, and threatened to release "dirty laundry" on President Donald Trump if the money is not paid.
News of the hack on New York-based law firm Grubman, Shire, Meiselas and Sacks broke last week.
They say their cache includes contracts, nondisclosure agreements, phone numbers, email addresses, and private correspondence, according to Variety.
On Thursday they doubled the ransom, threatening to also leak damaging information on Trump, Page Six reported.
"The ransom is now [doubled to] $42,000,000 … The next person we'll be publishing is Donald Trump. There's an election going on, and we found a ton of dirty laundry," the hackers said in a new message on Thursday.
They have info on several celebrities. They hacked the company over a week ago.
Major media and entertainment law firm Grubman Shire Meiselas & Sacks said that after its internal data systems were hacked — and a vast trove of information on its clients was stolen — it has informed its roster of A-list clients of the breach.
“We can confirm that we’ve been victimized by a cyberattack,” the New York-based firm said in a statement to Variety. “We have notified our clients and our staff. We have hired the world’s experts who specialize in this area, and we are working around the clock to address these matters.”
@allyn Day-um! I wish I'd had the presence of mind to talk back to the bullies and stand up to the clueless teachers when I was a kid. Unfortunately I'd usually lose all control and burst into tears. Which is just what they wanted. Except one time they were kicking me and I began kicking back-- And just like in your case, that finally got the teacher's attention.
Over the years I have learned I can give as good as I'm given but, yeah, I feel bad when I do that. So instead I try to say something irrelevant or flippant -- or even NICE-- which totally confuses them.
I was bullied too and I agree with what you wrote. I like the way you "give it back verbally" to T supporters and I say I wish I could think as quickly and be as clever. You don't look for confrontation but you do not ALLOW yourself to be bullied anyone. Kudos.
The only way (when I was a child) that the bullying stopped was when I finally, after 8 years of it, defended myself.
I would like to see the Dems be more clever and go on the Offensive with T and his GOP cabal. We are under attack by T and the GOP cabal - they are working for Putin and others who want to take down our democracy and lives of Americans - hec all Americans. I say we must find a way to remove the threat. I'm NOT advocating violence, however there are times one must defend oneself in order to survive and to protect others. Doctors cut out the cancer, and T and his corrupt conspirators are an active threat.
Example: Gretchen Witmer and her fellow lawmakers in the capital building in Michigan were (in my opinion) threatened by those "protesters". To me they were not protesters but rather Terrorists - who should have been removed, arrested and prevented from doing that again.
@runestoneone theory of the middle is great - I just wish I had the answer to what that is.
@allyn WOW. This is a powerful narrative. I would like to cut and paste it onto my Facebook page if it's all right with you. I can make sure that there are no attributes or links, unless you want your name attached. Totally your choice.
I also agree that simply turning the other cheek does not work in so many of these situations. I find it so interesting how many use anti-abortion memes as if to justify the rest of their hateful positions. I like Sister Chittister's statement that so many are not really pro-life, but rather pro-birth since they ignore children once they are born. Finally, so you know you are not alone: I've been known to ask why they want a child born only to lock them in cages and allow them to die there. So far, not one has ever responded.
Please feel free to post on facebook, but please don't use my name. Some people may figure out who I am, and I try to keep my "Trump supporter putdowns" quiet, as I don't want to seem like a bully and look like I am bragging about taking them down a peg or two. The Trump supporter who accosted me in the store yesterday may figure it out, but he already knows anyway, so I doubt he would want to post anything (unless he wants me to accuse him of being a pedophile on the internet).
The only reason I told you guys is because I know what it is like to be verbally attacked by Trump supporters in a red state, and I hope my experiences with them will encourage others here who have tried other options (peace, respect, ignoring, reasoning, etc.).
Again, remember that everyone who voted for Trump or who have reasons to support Trump are not necessarily Trump supporters. Many Republicans in my area may support Trump, but go out of their way not to inflict their opinions to me (we prefer to talk about sports or local gossip). And there is actually a growing number of Republicans who plan to vote against Trump this time around. Not for any specific reason, per se, but because they, like the rest of us, long for the days when Republicans and Democrats were involved in a friendly rivalry and not full-out war.
But the crazy Trump supporters who attack you in a store or seek you out so they can insult you in public...they are the ones that I despise. So if you want to post my story, feel free to do so. I just hope that people who are tired of the conservatives calling us all baby killers finally give them some pain and make them back off. If it means openly questioning their reasons as to why they prefer to save the unborn but wish to make the children suffer later in life...well, then that's what we need to do.
I have a confession to make. Due to my experiences as a child, I actually practice these insults in front of my mirror or in my car on my way to court, so as to always have them on hand. No, this doesn't happen often, but by practicing my response in advance, I can recite them easily when the time comes.
The fact that I have time to practice my put-downs gives you an idea of how often I hear the insults in the first place. But afterwards, I rarely hear them again.
But most people are not cruel my nature (you and the rest of the people on this forum certainly are not), so I posted some of my more memorable responses so people can use them themselves.
But sometimes the insults can actually win you some friends. Several years ago (just after Hillary gave her epic testimony to Congress about her emails), a colleague of mine began messing with me about supporting Hillary, then made the mistake of asking me if I watched the hearing. My response:
"I just love Trey Gowdy, don't you? It is so obvious that he loves Hillary! The fact that he kept her talking for 11 hours...I mean, we can both admit Hillary isn't much of a speech writer, (the only people who pay to hear her speak are insomniac businessmen in New York, and that's just for two hours!) But Trey had her for 11 hours! If that ain't love, I don't know what is!
Are you telling me you watched all 11 hours too? I didn't know you loved Hillary! You do know she isn't going to leave Bill, right?"
Of course, I had to be overheard by the judge, who was listening behind the corner. Needless to say, the judge and my colleague appreciated my insults, and call me "Matchmaker" to this day. ;)