I watched youtube videos of the Pickett attack at Gettysburg today and realized that we have been a divided country since the Civil War. The north and south never fully integrated and the South couldn't let go of the war.
Thanks for that point, Brandy, and I'd like to add that the North-South differences were just as extreme in 1776. The founding fathers struggled over the issue of slavery. The northern colonies said slavery was wrong. The southern colonies said that slavery had to be allowed under the new constitution or they would not sign the Declaration of Independence. So John Adams and his fellow northern delegates decided they'd let it go for now and address it later. Thomas Jefferson had slaves, but felt it was wrong. John Adams was adamantly opposed to slavery. But they needed to form a union in order to break from King George. Then 90 years later the nation fought it out.
Octagon, I'm so glad you joined us and reminded us to think more carefully about what we are saying. Starpath it's okay! You haven't said anything that others haven't felt, but Octagon has given us a wake-up call to be discerning about our observations. So I hope we will evolve together on this issue.
We all have good intentions here towards all people. The human mind tends to generalize first before making distinctions. So here are some distinctions I'm seeing that might refine the conversation.
The southern cultural norms, though not adopted by all, are an institutionalized racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious intolerance that goes back to the 1950's and earlier. It's not the fault of the individuals living there, but in cultural norms. Cultural norms have a way of persisting, especially in areas that haven't change much.
The main issue that keeps old cultural norms alive I think are urban-rural rather than north-south. The south is more rural and has changed less than the north (and blue states) which is more urban.
The urban areas in this country are more open minded and tolerant because all kinds of people live in close proximity and get to know one another. I lived in NYC for three years and, having grown up in a small homogenous town, I was shocked to find myself in a place that was, at the time, nearly 50% people of color. It's now 64%.
In general, though not always, rural areas are often less open minded and tolerant of differences because there's less exposure to those differences. The red states are more rural; the blue more urban. The major right-left differences in this country are urban-rural, not north/south. The parts of New York that are not NYC, are more conservative. Same with Massachusetts.
In the south, old cultural norms have persisted. There is racism, sexism, etc. in the northern and blue states. Lots of it.
I don't think people are regionally that different. But racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. are not the cultural norm up north so people comply and equality has a chance to flourish.
There are millions of light workers in the south who are kind, generous, enlightened people. There are also millions of kind and generous people whose cultural programming includes an ugly racism, sexism, and homophobia and religious intolerance. They are good people who would likely be thinking the same as you and I if they had grown up in in a different culture.
You all know this stuff, but I wanted to put it down here to clear my head.
Hi, Zoron is reading all these posts, and is a bit shocked. I had not realized how bad things are in some places. To me, looking from outside, it looks like fault lines developing, and the country splitting. Not just geographically, but over race, class, education, religion, etc. Its distressing to watch. Here in the UK, we are looking at BREXIT, which is rapidly becoming EJEXIT, and is causing serious worries. The country is rapidly polarising, and we have a nasty, right wing, conservative Government. It hates Europe, and clings desperately to the American Right. We are all feeling that we are facing some kind of disaster, over BREXIT. Race is also a big issue. The hard line right have emerged, due to BREXIT, and created a nasty atmosphere. I despair.
Jeanne, you are spot on your message, based on my experience.
While the South is much more bold with their racism/bigotry, talk to any minority and they'll tell you they have experienced plenty of racism/bigotry from a variety of people in a variety of places from the rural south to the big city north.
The fabric of America was sewn with racism and bigotry in mind and it would be foolish to assume that it only blankets certain parts of the nation.
--Edited for clearer understanding. --
There are liberal voters, even in the reddest of states, and right wing voters in the bluest. I live in NYC, viewed as liberal, but we have many of the same problems as we perceive the south as having. The city elected Giuliani, twice! We have the most segregated public school system in the county. We're governed by a state legislature that has many members from upstate NY and the north country, who are extremely conservative and love to push NYC around. NYC's members of congress are all dems except for the one from Staten Island, because that borough is pretty right wing. Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, and other really red states have their college towns, which are deep blue. It's a combo of rural vs. urban, plus some college educated in the mix.
I hope everyone is enjoying the first day of the Second Civil War (according to Alex Jones LOL).
I appreciate everybody's thoughtful and well-written responses and I am glad we are all here thinking about things. I don't have a lot more to add except to share an experience I had recently. As I said, my volunteer work brings me to low income areas quite frequently. I volunteer for an animal rescue organization and I mostly help people get their cats neutered. I was asked to go to a trailer park in my town and do outreach. I felt really nervous about going there because I thought the park would be full of addicts so I got other volunteers to go with me. Six months later, I have talked to almost everyone who lives in that park. I did meet some addicts. I also met people on disability, people with mental illness, people who live ordinary lives with their families and work low paying jobs, one artist, and one person who I suspect is a bodhisattva. Now I go there by myself and I wave at lots of people when I drive through. I was a liberal, spiritual person before I started volunteering there but it's clear to me that I felt extremely superior to anybody who lived in a trailer park. I don't mean to imply that I am not a judgmental person any more because I am judgmental but I don't want to be and hopefully this will be a reminder to me in the future.
I don't feel optimistic about America staying in one piece. Maybe it's not supposed to. I don't know. But I do think our efforts now can make the world a more unified and loving place. And I too am very hopeful that the younger generation will turn the tide.
Every minute spent helping those who have less than we do is sacred time. There is so much suffering on this earth, and so many people who live on next to nothing. If you're awake, you're called on to alleviate suffering, in whatever way you can, large or small, even if it's just listening to someone.
Kudos to you Octagon, for answering the call.
Welcome Octagon! beautiful post, love hearing what you have to say! And "Shout Out" to all the new members, it's so good seeing who all shows up...
i think it's really interesting how things can be so different than what
they seem , a trailer park might turn out to be the most dynamic neighborhood in the whole town. A cat helping project might turn into the beginning of Civil Peace. anyway, so glad to have you all here!
Everyone, Thank you for your contributions here. Given that the topic title has become a right wing bot meme, I am impressed that we kept it sane. :-)
But now that the title is a bot meme, this discussion is now ended. Any further replies on this thread will be removed. Thanks!
Everyone, Thank you for your contributions here. Given that the topic title has become a right wing bot meme, I am impressed that we kept it sane. :-)
But now that the title is a bot meme, this discussion is now ended. Any further replies on this thread will be removed. Thanks!