@lenor The other problem is that the Constitution expressly forbids pardons in cases of impeachment, so that's a non-starter, too. ;-)
You can still get pardoned on criminal charges. A pardon just won't end the impeachment and allow you to stay in office. Thats how I read it anyways.
He, or anyone else, still can use the 5th if he has a good lawyer. You cannot be forced to say something that can be used to incriminate you and any charges that can possibly be brought by state or local jurisdictions(of which the pardon has no influence) can still allow you to use the 5th amendment.
For instance, Trump pardons Rudy for any crimes he might have committed from 2016-2021. Rudy can still face state or local charges for inciting the riot, so he can plead the 5th still and not answer the question.
You can still get pardoned on criminal charges. A pardon just won't end the impeachment and allow you to stay in office.
I would agree with you unless the criminal charges are included as part of formal Articles of Impeachment. In that case, they can't be pardoned away, and impeachment on those charges included in the Articles will remain pursuable in the impeachment/conviction process. What is not clear is whether those same charges could be brought in a criminal case once that impeachment process is complete. I suspect that they might not be able to do so under the principle of double jeopardy, but I don't know. I think we'll probably find out over the next year or so. ;-)
T is so toxic at the moment that the New England Coach will not accept the Presidential Medal of Freedom due to the riots.
"Above all, I am an American citizen with a great reverence for our nation's values, freedom and democracy. I know I also represent my family and the New England Patriots team. One of the most rewarding things in my professional career took place in 2020 when, through the great leadership within our team, conversations about social justice, equality and human rights moved to the forefront and became actions. Continuing those efforts while remaining true to the people, team and country I love outweigh the benefits of any individual award."
I dont think you can include criminal charges, being those with a criminal penalty, in an impeachment. Impeachment is strictly a political tool so even a conviction of inciting an insurrection resulting in removal from office would have no effect on a criminal case. Double jeopardy isn't applicable because impeachment is not a criminal charge, even if the offense was criminal. From a judicial/legal standpoint, impeachment is no different than getting voted out of office in an election.
Conversely, if he is pardoned by Pence for the incitement, he cannot face federal criminal charges but that would have no impact on the impeachment. Also, he is still liable in any state or local criminal charges as well as civil charges if pardoned.
From a judicial/legal standpoint, impeachment is no different than getting voted out of office in an election.
@mas1581 Except incitement to insurrection is a criminal charge carrying a criminal penalty, as was obstruction of justice in the first go round, so obviously criminal charges can be included in the Articles. The part I'm not sure about is whether - after having been included in the impeachment/trial thing - those charges could actually be brought in a criminal case later. Or are you saying that because 1) Constitutional impeachment/trial is not a charge of criminality but of malfeasance and violation of public trust, and 2) Congress has no authority to impose any penalty beyond removal and injunction against holding future office, the use of criminal charges in an impeachment would not be regarded as the first instance in a double jeopardy claim?
Removal after impeachment wouldn't have any bearing on future criminal charges, but it does have some consequences that merely losing an election would not, including the loss of pension benefits, Secret Service protection, and classified briefings. It also would make the removed official ineligible to hold federal office in the future.
@jampa He would lose access to classified briefings once he's out of office regardless of how it happens, but yes, he would lose pension benefits, staff subsidies, and the travel allowance. Secret Service protection, however, is not one of the perks that he would lose.
Regardless of what Congress decides, one perk Trump will get to keep is his Secret Service detail—a 2013 amendment to the law guaranteed lifetime protection, even to presidents removed from office.
In addition, the loss of the ability to hold future office is not automatic upon removal. That requires a second, simple majority vote by the Senate if he is removed by the 2/3 vote first.
Much more information here, including questioning whether he keeps the Secret Service protection. However, because it is more recent, the 2013 law referenced above would seem to take precedence unless the former president refuses the offer of protection as Jimmy Carter did many years ago.
Ok. some thoughts on the recent actions of McConnell and Pence.
At first, I was furious that these two are continuing to pander to Trump (McConnell by delaying the impeachment vote and Pence by refusing the 25th amendment). But I have had some time to reflect, and I wonder if there is a hidden agenda here.
Now, we know the Republican party is screwed. They got too many racist, conspiracy believing, terrorists in their midst to keep that element and the traditional Republicans together in the same party. They will continue to battle each other and call each other traitors depending on their feelings about Trump.
McConnell has reaped the rewards of his dealings with Trump. He has tried to use Trump to put the Republicans first and drum up support for the Georgia vote, but it failed miserably, causing him to lose his position. And if the Republicans fail to retake the Senate in 2022, I don't see McConnell sticking around (Republicans have 21 seats to protect versus 14 Democrat seats. And two of the Republican seats will be open, as those senators will be retiring).
I think it is also safe to say that Pence is damaged goods too. Besides the pandemic response, Pence has been cast as a traitor by the Trump terrorists, so I don't foresee a national political career for him in the future either.
Having said that, I think that Pence and McConnell are being very sneaky right now. They are "playing nice" with Trump right now to play both sides of the Republican party, so it is for personal reasons. But I also think that they are also working to make it easier for Democrats to come up with charges against Trump.
Now, here is my reasoning:
1. Democrats will probably succeed in impeaching Trump. But McConnell thinks that if he waits until Biden is sworn in, then Schumer, as the new Majority Leader, will preside over the Senate vote. So any anger by Trump supporters can be diverted to Schumer, (who doesn't want their votes anyway). Yes, many people will consider McConnell to be a coward because he believes that he does not care enough about the intergrity of the Senate to defend it against a madman (by punishing the madman with an impeachment vote), but we all already knew that anyway.
2. Pence and McConnell are probably banking on the fact that the Senate could wait several months before having the final vote on Trump's impeachment. There are several reasons to do this. First, by waiting a few months, more Trump terrorists will be gathered up and put behind bars and/or put on ankle monitors to watch them when they are out on bond. Therefore, the threat is lessened a little. Also, this will give the Democrats more time to dig out fresh information about Trump's actions. I am willing to bet that there is at least one employee right now who overheard Trump discuss his intentions for his followers to hurt the Congress, and is waiting for Trump to leave office before coming out. That person would be protected because Trump can't fire them (Trump is no longer there) and due to Trump being muzzled from Twitter, then he is hindered in his ability to harass and intimidate those witness(es) against him.
3. Pence and McConnell may be hoping that by pacifying Trump now, he will finish the term and not pardon himself. Personally, I don't think they realize the depth of Democrats' loathing against Trump and are hoping that if they can just wait it out, then Trump leaving will lessen Democrat's anger. This won't work because news media will continue to show the riots again and again. The American people are anxious and want this matter investigated to the fullest. This is where Republican past actions will come back to bit them in the a**. They can't claim that the nation must "forgive" and come together, or that an investigation will be a waste of taxpayer money. They put Hillary through the ringer with Benghazi, so how can they say that the deaths of four Americans in another country deserves more scrutiny than at least five deaths of Americans right here in the nation's capital? And I don't recall Hillary encouraging terrorists to storm any building, so....good luck with that, Republicans.
Anyone else just so sick and tired of these a-holes and ready to be done with them? I know that's not going to happen because as usual, we have to come in and try to clean up gigantic sh*tpile they always make.
That's why I needed to detach a bit and just enjoy the holidays. The last four years have seemed interminable.
As always, McConnell and Pence are trying to play both sides to save themselves. Sadly, in the age of Trump, you are either his devoted slave (Trump is right on everything), or you are against him (I agree with Trump on everything, but on this issue....wait! Stop! I am not a traitor! AHHHHHH!). There is simply no way to be both.
I noticed a poll recently that 45% of Republicans supported Trump's raid on the capital. Obviously, these are the Trump terrorists group, which make up roughly half of the Republican party right now. Yet, by the population, only 21% of all American voters approve of Trump's actions. (Note: according to the poll, Independent and Democratic support for the insurrection was in single digits, so hardly significant).
Conclusion-the Republican party is barely forty percent of the voters right now, and therefore there is no viable way for them to be competitive in the come years. Half of the Republican party firmly believes that the other half betrayed Trump, while the other half finally see that they are harboring insurrectionists, terrorists, and criminals in their midst. They won't be able to come together on a candidate that will satisfy them because the candidate will be either too Trumpian or not Trumpian enough, depending on who you ask.
Now, I don't blame Pence and McConnell for their actions. By waiting for Democrats to take charge and do the dirty work for them, they hope to rid themselves of Trump and bide their time to take control back. But they do not see how divided the Republicans are right now. And even then, Trump is only going to continue to cause chaos in the coming years, which will serve as a reason for Democrats to stay united and to continue to vote in droves. Methinks the Senate and House will become a darker shade of blue in 2022, as Democrats will drag this out for years and continue to flame people's fears about a Trump return. In essence, by delaying action, Pence and McConnell may be limiting the immediate fallout, but they have also shown that Republicans cannot be trusted with governing or even the defense of our country. If you can't take action against the terrorist in your midst, then why would the country ever put you in power again?
@polarberry OMgosh you knew! I went cold turkey on that last bag and ditched the onion dip. ?
(Note: according to the poll, Independent and Democratic support for the insurrection was in single digits, so hardly significant).
In my opinion, any I or D support for the coup attempt is very significant and a strong indicator of just how pervasive and dangerous the lies have been.
?
As much as I'd love to claim a psychic win here, I think it's more my knowing that the fresh broccoli and cauliflower and carrot circles I am crunching up would be healthier without the accompanying, seemingly-innocent bowl of oniony sour-creamy evil deliciousness.
I'm hopeful those seeking re-election in 2022 and those who may try to hold the mantle of a top contender for Trump 2.0 in 2024 find themselves in a very different state of the world in 2 years and 4 years respectively.
Tho it seems difficult to believe in this charged domestic terrorist reality the country is in since the 6th, I do feel / "get" that as t is less and less relevant and no longer the forefront of media, the brainwashing aspect of the most vulnerable will ease and they will come out of the delusion unsure what happened. Dazed. Of the others, the ones purely dedicated to hate and disorder, those will need to be dealt with in some way I myself cannot yet see...Heather Cox Richardson says the Republican Party is broken...I hope so. I do absolutely believe that the repugs who backed --before and after -- the attempted coup will find themselves out of the political world almost completely. The megamagaphone is broken, and I do believe it will stay broken. Sadly, hate and disorder are a part of the human equation so I cannot say unequivocally that this type of thing is behind us entirely. Yet between my own intuitions and the marvelous accuracy of Jeanne's visions and all the folks here, I do believe we are at the cusp (however dangerous) of a paradigm shift. I reiterate, as I have so often: IF YOU FEAR IT, IT IS YOURS. It behooves us to be positive, visualize calm, peace, all the good stuff... even in the wake of despair and pain. The Mon-Wed-Fri meditations DO make a difference, and we are not the only ones to send out the energy. Spirit can only help as we request -- they are ALWAYS present, but we must ask for help, at least it is my understanding that that is part of the connection. The meditations and of course, positive actions, being so constant, keep Spirit and Angels always near, with Wings enfolding the country. Dang, wasn't going to go all writy-wordy. ? Well, I like to THINK I will not go all wordy, but sigh I am, who I am ?
Secret Service protection, however, is not one of the perks that he would lose.
Can that be changed? That is, since his criminality is so egregious and the circumstances so out of any history or precedence, could it be changed? I suppose it would take an Amendment?
I am so politically ignorant, until 2016 I was not at all interested. Oh, I did my due diligence on issues and candidates and ALWAYS voted, but I am not sure I really understood a lot of what was going on in the halls of government. Worse, I am not sure I cared beyond the surface of voting. ? My nickname elsewhere is not AFK (airy-fairy-karrie) for nothing. Spiritual and intuitive stuff is soooo much more natural for me!
I am truly grateful for your posts, they help me understand the literal world of politics with a greater ease. It's not that I don't have a brain (like the scarecrow I do have both a brain and several "certificates" of various kinds of brain work) ? ? ? but politics, both in interest and existence, has always eluded me. So thank you for offering up clarity and knowledge. Sad (scary!) to know it took a demagogue to wake up the political portion of my brain.
I have been reading Surviving Autocracy by Masha Gessen, well-written, but intense, and I also receive Heather Cox Richardson's daily column so I am beginning to understand how the history of the Republican party led us to t. Anyway, I'm blithering again, I just really appreciate your posts.