Posted by @lovendures:
What form of vigilantism will this now usher in? Do we not have consequences for our actions?
@lovendures, The verdict was just announced to me by a close family member, and she was jubilant. I felt sick to my stomach and had to get off the phone.
IMO the judge's actions in this case were horrendous and biased. I totally agree with your concern about the open invitation for future vigilantism.
I'd be curious to hear some of our community lawyers' views on this case.
@lovendures don't lose heart just yet. You know I don't watch news (everyone knows why), but I do read headlines & occasional news stories to keep abreast of things. I can't say I've followed this case or truly know more than a few basics. I did happen to see this- Jerry Nadler has called for a DOJ review to see if Federal charges can be brought. Like past cases where not guilty verdicts have raised eyebrows, Rittenhouse isn't necessarily in for an easy ride from here out. He'll most likely be tied up in civil court for years and with calls for the DOJ to review, he could end up in Federal court as well.
Judges are mini-dictators. Their courtrooms are their kingdoms. I've never practiced in any criminal court but I have in a variety of different civil courts, and immigration court. I'd say about 25% of the judges I've appeared before are OK. The rest, not so much. I've had judges scream at me, and, very early in my career, one literally throwing a book at me. And I'm a decent lawyer. I'm not disrespectful or ill-prepared, ever, but I'm always the one in the room representing the least powerful litigant. So there you are.
This particular judge is just an embarrassment. Like a crazy uncle at a holiday dinner table, saying all sorts of nutty stuff. The fact that he barred MSNBC from his courtroom says to me he's probably a Fox viewer, and is also all that goes along with that.
Ye gods America, now if he had been of a different colour scheme what would the verdict have been then.
Just taking his semi automatic out for a stroll wanting to help. Trouble with having guns deep down is the desire wonder what it would be like to kill someone. Not that I would ever do that. Yeah right.
I think I just offended everyone.
We aren’t goody two shoes here by any means and I probably shouldn’t comment on another country but I have.
Regards to all
We're definitely not "goody-two-shoes" here, but we are a community striving to awaken - together. Matildagirl, I share your dismay about what happened in Wisconsin. It definitely doesn't feel fair or just but if I give in to these feelings for very long, I'll just be adding more hate to a world that definitely does not need it.
I'm constantly striving for the balance of keeping my feet very grounded and practical, which includes reacting and acting, while also literally rising above it - with compassion. I think we can do both.
I'm not sugar-coating what happened, or just how bad things might get. But still, I want to join with other people who recognize everything broken has to crumble so that we can rebuild something never before seen. I think this verdict, and all that will come from it, is part of the crumbling. I think it's going to get worse, as the predictions on this site and elsewhere indicate, but then - then we get to build new.
I love that we can gather together hurting, and still - hoping. To me, the path forward is to keep our vibrations as high as we can, kind of like the eye of a hurricane. Feeling, expressing those feelings, and then letting them go. It doesn't have to take long. I'm grateful for the other people in this forum who encourage me when I feel heavy.
@lovendures Rottenhouse still faces civil trials, (one has been started already) and a possible federal indictment. I thought it would be a hung jury, too. My husband kept telling me he was going to get off in spite of the shoddy self defense claim. I am still hoping that the rottenhouse prediction comes true on the civil and federal levels. His mom should be charged, too. She is asking for donations to help pay the lawyers. There was a prediction that he would be charged and I bet the person who predicted it was picking up the energy from the majority of the collective who knew he murdered those two men. But going through the older predictions I noticed that most were not immediately coming true, there is a definite time lapse between a prediction and it manifestation.
@lenor Thank you so much for this post. I read it last night and the thought of more trials for Rittenhouse snapped my disappointment into perspective. The civil trials ahead are much more likely to be successful against him. The right wing grift money he receives in the days and months ahead will end up in the hands of the families of his victims. That premonition I had about split verdicts for Rittenhouse was one of those "nudges" from intuition/spirit. I was getting nudged all day long for three days before I finally meditated and posted it. There's hope for accountability!
My hope is he is indicted on federal charges since he was underaged and crossed state line with an assault weapon. A congressman asked DOJ to look into possible federal charges against rottenhouse. Hope his mom is charged too. His mom has been asking for donations for lawyer fees. She said she needed $ 110,000. I think the money raised by that “christian” group is gone.
@lenor I read today that Tucker Carlson had a camera/producer with Rittenhouse and his defense all the way through the trial and prep. Carlson will be airing a “documentary” about Rittenhouse. Plus, there are bound to be other opportunities for grift, like a book deal, movie rights, etc. There is also a question in my mind about how Rittenhouse was able to hire the famous jury specialist who worked with his defense team. This is the same jury specialist who helped O.J. Simpson’s defense team. That takes big bucks. I would love to be able to follow the money supporting him.
@livingfree Thank you for a beautiful post of hope. I am putting it in our Hall of Fame.
Hi guys,
whatever the rights and wrongs of the Rittenhouse case, it got me thinking about the underlying reasons, feelings whatever that caused it.
What do you think are the real reasons and not citing the constitution and the right to bear arms.
Why the need to have a gun?
what fears make you feel you need one
then why the need to openly carry, what feeling does that give? Feeling powerful?
why do you fear each other. What are the real reasons people want guns?
I think for gun control and so on to get anywhere you would have to work out how we got here, why that was and look at the underlying fears and feelings and address those first.
just some musings
Regards to all
What do you think are the real reasons and not citing the constitution and the right to bear arms.
Why the need to have a gun?
I think that most of these people already have murder in their hearts. Then they buy the gun, hoping that some scenario will occur to let them act upon their murderous fantasies.
why do you fear each other. What are the real reasons people want guns?
Many people will claim a fear of "crime in the streets", but i think this is just code for "whites have been abusing POC for centuries, and now that whites are becoming the minority, someone may decide to return the favor".
I think there's two big reasons for some folks feeling like they "need" guns in the U.S.
One is fear. If you look at many of the folks who own and promote guns, they fear others who are different. They fear people of color, LGBT folks, immigrants, the government, and the list goes on. They fear people are going to come and take what is theirs - whether their belongings or their privilege. Certain news outlets, especially right wing news outlets, feed this fear, but even the regular evening news hypes up things to be fearful of (robberies, assaults, violence and the like).
The other big thing is a gun "fetish" among certain portions of the population. For a certain demographic of people, guns, the flag, and their religion are all raised to a sacred and holy level (even if they don't support the principles their flag represents or their religion professes). Unfortunately, some of these things are ingrained in various parts of our culture and certainly among certain political followings.
While I was being very diplomatic in my description, the blunt answer is that some folks in the U.S. need guns because they are paranoid cowards who think everyone else is out to get them and their belongings, and the only way to protect themselves is through excessive violence or at least the threat of it.
While I personally prefer non-lethal forms of protection, I do understand why some folks would want to have a gun for personal protection or even hunting. That said, I see no reason why a normal citizen would "need" an assault rifle or other weapon of mass killing.
Within the US, there's a big cultural divide in the viewpoint about guns, and it's largely an urban vs. rural divide. For people who live in rural and semi-rural areas, a gun can be kind of like a utilitarian household appliance: everyone has one, and it's normal and sensible, and not necessarily a fear-based, status, or power-trip kind of thing.
If you have land, there are going to be varmints and sometimes trespassers to deal with. Growing up in a rural area I saw this firsthand. My dad had a couple of handguns. He used them to shoot rattlesnakes in the fields and rats in the barn. And the guns were also for protection. If the dogs were barking at something down in the woods, he'd grab a gun and head out --by himself- to see what the problem was. Trespassers were not uncommon and sometimes they'd be doing illegal things like cutting (our) wood, shooting squirrels, or dumping their garbage on our property. I don't think my dad would ever have directly threatened anyone, but the people were unlikely to mess with him seeing he had a gun.
When I got older and made some friends and associates from the upper, more educated, urban classes I was surprised that some of them thought it was barbaric, primitive, and nearly unthinkable that my dad had guns. But they grew up in the upper middle class suburban world, where cops and neighbors are close by, and where if you have rats, you can easily contract (and pay) an exterminator.
Sane, well-adjusted people who are accustomed to having guns as utilitarian tools are not of the the same mindset as people who use them out of paranoia or a need for power. But they will get just as pissed off as the crazies if you threaten their right to own guns. It would be like taking away their truck, or their chainsaw--- which are also just tools.
The far right exploits this concern. And I think many on the left enable this exploitation by not understanding what a gun is to many rural people: just a tool. I think we need to understand this point of view instead of automatically pigeonholing all gun owners as paranoid violent idiots, and thus alienating those who have a reasonable need for a gun and use it responsibly.
@ana This is absolutely the best and most sensible and well thought out explanation I have ever read or heard on the subject of guns. Thank you!
@ana Hi Iridium
All our farmers still have their guns if they want them, in our case it’s more the average person in town who doesn’t. They are to be kept in locked safes with the ammunition kept separately. In theory here snakes are protected animals along with crocodiles so in theory you wouldn’t be shooting them. We do like to live dangerously here. You get your local snake handler to remove it and you don’t go near the riverbank or swimming in that water. Simple
I think the mindset here is different and it’s the mindset that may need changing in America.
It took a massacre in a heritage tourist area that most people had been to, including me a couple of months before, to change the mindset. But it changed, with a lot of kicking and screaming in the process. It can happen
Regards to all
Actually, this verdict was not a surprise to me at all. I saw in advance that he would not be convicted. It occurred when the judge made that juror leave after he made a tasteless joke about a shooting of a black man to the court officer.
My point? Yes, the juror was dismissed, and he wasn't involved in the verdict.
But why would a juror feel so comfortable making such a joke to a court officer, of all people?
By that time, the trial had been going on for a few days, but the fact that the juror felt comfortable enough to share a joke to a court official is pretty telling as to the majority view of the sitting jurors.
Again, this is hard for me. I am a white woman who lives in the south, so it is hard for me not to understand the "use guns to protect" mentality. People who live in the country live far away from officers, and guns are often the only means to protect yourself when you are attacked at home.
That being said, does that mean that I have a right to take a gun everywhere? To protect property that is not mine? The jury in Rittenhouse were imaging themselves as owners of businesses who wanted to protect their business from vandalism, and that is why they acquitted him.
All fine and good. But they ignore the plight of black Americans who are all too often targets by police and civilians alike who shoot them and then cry "self-defense." Yes, I am looking at the Arbury case, which I think will have a very different verdict. If we hope to move forward as a country, we need to figure out what exactly constitutes self-defense. I believe the Arbury jury will get it right, because many women on that jury will sympathize with Arbury (If I were an unarmed white woman jogging around and suddenly three men with guns try to stop me with their truck, I wouldn't hesitate to run away too, as a group of unarmed men with guns is likely to be trying to rape/murder me.) In the end, a big part of the trial depends on who the jury sympathizes with. The prosecution lost sight of that in Rittenhouse. I don't believe Arbury will end the same way.
You also have right wing legal scholars whose position has been that the 2nd amendment applies to individuals and not just those serving in a "militia." Google DC v. Heller, a 2008 SCOTUS decision (5-4) that interprets the right to bear arms in a way that is different than what was understood for centuries. Along with Citizens United, it's one of a string of cases where a bare majority of justices (some appointed by presidents who didn't win the popular vote) have deviated from years of established consensus and are taking us down a very dark path.
Regarding the Rittenhouse trial, my guides tell me that it will wake light workers up and they will say "enough is enough."
Ok now we’re getting somewhere. White Supremacist groups have been subpoenaed and now they know about burner phones used to keep in contact with the Trump family and associates