So Stone was sentenced about 1/2 the recommended time that the prosecutors were asking for.
Any bets on how long it takes the Orange Fuhrer to pardon him?
I'm frustrated (and angry), yet again.
So, the original recommendation was 7-9 years. Then the corrupt administration complains and the justice department says the sentence should be "much less". Then there are some meetings and the "new" lawyers say the original gov't memo and sentence recommendation was correct.
But, Stone only gets 3.3 years. Which, by my math, is "much less" than 7-9 years. And, I'm guessing, between time served and probation, this clown could be free in 18 months....this side of a commuted sentence.
It doesn't feel like Justice to me. But, what do I know....other than how this feels, and it feels corrupt...again.
It doesn't feel like Justice to me. But, what do I know....other than how this feels, and it feels corrupt...again.
@codyroo, your feelings are correct that the light sentence is due to corruption. Good reporting is pointing out that what is going on is authoritarianism in the president. It is authoritarianism and the behavior of a dictator. Trump is pardoning people to demonstrate the he and only he has the power to prosecute, to destroy, to punish, and to save. The people he has pardoned are guilty corrupt felons who he either identifies with (Blagojevich) or who have helped him in his own corruption (Stone) or demonstrate the kind of cruelty, racism, or corruption that he himself demonstrates (Judge Arpaio, the two soldiers who committed atrocities while on duty).
But also he has pardoned people who happen to have some relationship to him.
The first message Trump is sending is that he and only he, not the justice system, is the purveyor of punishment. The second message is that people should all suck up to him and his family or expect punishment.
This is totalitarianism. This is what the Senate has done. If we don't stop him with this election, I am not yet ready to think what that means for our democracy. We need to start praying, sending light, and working hard to overthrow this party and this monster.
Not sure I agree completely. I read that Judge Jackson has a reliable pattern of center sentencing. Never thought she was going to give Stoner seven to nine.
SDNY can still come after him too. I have a feeling charges against Stone aren't finished. I will also be very surprised if Twitler pardons him. Donnie's in a tough spot. Leave Roger to rot, he might drip some really ugly dirt. Pardon him, face the political blowback, and then Stone would have to testify when Donnie's arrested.
Absolutely no doubt that Twitler is a dictator and plans to turn US into a full-blown authoritarian state. His supporters are either completely ok with that, because it's their cult leader, or are too stupid to see it.
Don't worry, though. Collins and Murkowski are concerned.
Just thought of this-there are a couple of predictions that for a while after the Senate aquittal, it would appear as though the rethugs are winning, but it is all an illusion and the truth will be revealed.
@journeywithme2, hmm ... hard to say. In the past the T administration liked to do their news dumps on Friday evenings, especially if they thought it was something that might upset people. But since T is now king, he gives a rats ass what people think. I'd give him at least 24 hours, or maybe even through the weekend before he does it. He loves the drama and cruelty of toying with people.
@polarberry, I tend to agree with you re Judge Jackson. I never believed she would give him the full 7-9 yr. sentence, although 3+ yrs seems ridiculously short. But I don't know what would be considered legally reasonable. Maybe one of the legal eagles in our community could weigh in?
The thing that upsets me the most is that there are 2.3 million prisoners currently incarcerated in this country. Some of these prisoners are serving inordinately long and unjust sentences for non-violent crimes (e.g. drug possession), some are mentally ill, some are children, some were never given fair trials. Plus there have been people -- some teenagers -- held for years at Rikers, awaiting trial. Some of these prisons almost function as torture chambers. Power, money, status, race, connection ... that can often make the difference in whether you serve any prison time.
Regarding the independence of SDNY: I've heard that BillyB might be messing with them as well. As of January, all Ukraine-related investigations are being consolidated in such a way that even investigations already in progress, like those the SDNY is reportedly conducting of Rudy Giuliani, now have to be processed through Main Justice, as well as through Richard Donoghue, the DA of the Eastern Dist. of NY (Brooklyn). Why do the SDNY prosecutors have to go through a prosecutor from another district? Up until now, SDNY has been vigorously investigating Giuliani's connections to Ukraine. Sounds fishy to me. Rachel Maddow talked about it on Tuesday night's show. I'm attaching the link here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si4GW82jhEg
There's no doubt BillyBill is trying to meddle and interfere, and he has undoubtedly thrown a monkey wrench or shut down investigations completely, like Mueller's. I continue to believe Twitler and his kids, and many others in his orbit are already indicted.
Then there's NY AG Letitia James. She's gunning for him. SDNY let it be know, through a tweet last week, that the investigation into Ghouliani (childish, I know, but it fits) is in full swing.
Stone should have been given thirty years, not three.
unfortunately those sentences are currently being given out to minorities and poor people or women who killed there abuser. It’s a harsh reality that we are living in.
@codyroo, @jeanne-mayell, @polarberry, and everyone else who has commented on Stone's sentence, I actually expected this sentence (I had my guess at 4 years, so I wasn't too far off.)
Now, a little disclaimer before I explain. I am a lawyer.
Yes, yes. A lawyer. Please refrain from the legal jokes, and if you must throw anything at me, at least let it be money. ;)
Now, the original report from the DA's office was for 7-9 years. The DA's reasoning was sound, and the legal brief was supported by existing case law. But then Trump comes in and messes with everything (because he is corrupt).
Judge Jackson's hands were tied. She did exactly what I expected her to do, which was to meet in the middle, which put the sentence at around 4 years (roughly half of the DA's original request.)
This is actually typical. Roger Stone had several factors going for him. 1.-He has money (Sad but true. The Courts do favor those with money). 2. He is old (He is in his 60s, which means he is easy pickings in jail). And 3.-He does not have a criminal record.
But then you have the other factors against him. 1. The seriousness of the crime. 2. The need to protect the public and send a message. And 3. Stone was not exactly contrite about his crimes (he posted a picture of the judge in a gun site, for heaven's sakes!)
I know everyone believes that Stone didn't get what he deserved. And you are all right. But Judge Jackson is playing a game of chess with the Predator in Chief right now. By advocating 3 years in jail, she is sending a message that she will not be intimidated by Trump by caving and ordering probation. However, she did not make the sentence so severe as to give Fox News and other Trump supporters much room to feel outraged. In other words, Fox News will look rather pathetic when they complain that the sentence was too harsh. "Lying to Congress? He should have gotten probation!"
These are the same people that have complained that the Clintons have lied to Congress and scream for them to be "locked up" all the time. If they want to prosecute the Clintons now, then they can try, but they will look incredibly petty doing so. Plus, the majority of the public (including a good number of Trump supporters) have Clinton Fatigue, and do not want to see them in the news again.
But most importantly, if they go after the Clintons after almost two decades, then the Republicans open the door for themselves to be prosecuted for crimes years after they leave office.
So Stone is stuck. He will try to argue that he should get a new trial, but he would have to prove that (1) the juror who allegedly posted anti-Trump statements on Facebook was prejudice against Stone, and (2) absent that bias, Stone would never been convicted.
I have looked into this case, and existing case law does not look promising for Stone. From what I have heard, Stone's attorneys knew about the juror before the trial, yet did not issue a challenge to keep the juror from hearing the case. Further, Stone will have to show that the juror's alleged bias against Stone somehow tainted his or her bias to Stone. Again, the existing case law is not very helpful to Stone here. While there are cases where a new trial was granted due to jury bias (example-a new trial was granted in a rape case because one juror did not disclose the fact that he was the victim of a sexual assault,) those cases are rare and depend on numerous factors.
Ok, now for the good news that I, with my unique insight into this matter, can share with you, fellow Light Warriors. I think that Judge Jackson deliberately set Stone's sentence with the main goal of trying to set Trump and Stone against each other. Many people (myself included) believe that Stone may have dirt on Trump, and will use that dirt to pressure Trump to get him out of jail.
Here is how I see the scenario playing out: Stone will delay his case as much as possible. He will try to file his motion for a new trial, lose, and then try to have his sentence put off until he appeals the court's decision. Judge Jackson may grant that motion (which would be highly unusual), but I feel it is much more likely that she orders Stone to go ahead and be put in jail whilst awaiting the appeal.
Now, if Stone's case falls within the normal pattern, then that puts the denial of Stone's motion for a new trial within a few months of the 2020 election. Trump will be pressured by Stone to pardon him before having to serve jail time. But if he does it before the election, he will lose voters. So Trump may tell Stone, "Hey, Roger, just go to jail for a few months! After I win the election, I will pardon you! And if I lose, I can pardon you anyway!"
Will Stone trust Trump? Will he be persuaded to sit in jail for "a few months?"
Again, there is sooooo much we don't know. Yes, Barr has corrupted the Federal Legal System. And yes, Trump can pardon Stone and others on Federal crimes.
But Trump can't corrupt the State Legal System. New York, for example, is poised and ready to file STATE charges (which Trump is powerless to issue a pardon). I would not be surprised that, if Trump loses the election in 2020 and tries to use his corruption to cast doubt on the election results (or issue more pardons), then the States will file charges against the Trump kids.
Yes, Trump. You say that you are immune from prosecution. But your kids are not.
And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. By putting a smaller sentence on Stone, Jackson is deliberately setting Trump and Stone against each other. Stone will pressure Trump to pardon him immediately, while Trump will try to delay the matter until after the election. Stone may release information against Trump in retaliation if he is not willing to go to jail and hope Trump will pardon him.
However, the State DAs are ready and waiting. If Trump resigns for some scandal prior to election (which we all hope will happen, but seems very unlikely right now), and if Trump tries to use his powers to save his friends, then expect the State DAs to tell Trump's attorneys (very discreetly, of course), that if Trump tries to circumvent the justice system even more, then they will go after Ivanka (his favorite child). But if Trump just lets justice run its course, then they will only go after Trump Jr. and Jared Kushner.
Yes, these backdoor threats are made all the time. We will likely never be told about it, but I expect it to happen.
So, for those of you who feel that justice has been denied here, remember that the practice of law is much like a game of chess (or Game of Thrones, if you are into that). Strategy, politics, and deals made behind closed doors are a normal part of life that the public is not often privy to. But everything has a reason. Jackson is being extremely smart here, and I wouldn't be surprised if her strategy results in some "information" being released about the Predator in Chief real soon.
Stone is small potatoes. He is a smaller player in a large, corrupt organization. To catch a bigger fish (Trump and/or Trump's kids), you need to make the worm (Stone) scrim a little on that hook.
Again, I am not psychic. I can only use my own experiences in criminal defense to see behind the headlines as to what is actually going on behind the scenes and what is likely going on in Judge Jackson's mind. I hope this gives you all a new perspective and some hope.
@allyn thank you so much for this explanation! It's such an intricate web with all of these players. Somehow I feel like Barr will take a fall-out from all of this too......I guess time will tell?
You are one hundred percent correct. Trump's people always end up taking the fall for him. Barr will come out of this wishing he had never met Trump, as his power will be tarnished. I doubt any future president or leader will ever employ him in a position of power again.
That is, if he doesn't go to jail first.
@allyn. Thank you. Excellent post! P.S. I am moving your Barr post, however excellent it is, which it is, from the Hits thread to the Barr thread.
Thanks for this great information. Very interesting to read.
FYI, no lawyer jokes from me.
Yes, some lawyers deserve a bad reputation. For the last 3 years however, I have come to have a great deal of respect of our need for lawyers. We NEED lawyers fighting for our constitution, our protected rights, the rights of marginalized human beings, our civil liberties and everything else the MAD ORANGE NIGHTMARE in office is trying to destroy.
If it were not for lawyers right now, we would be in a heap of trouble. I view most lawyers as huge bright lights right now. There will always be a few bad apples, but the good ones are gold.
@allyn and @lovendures I would like to add that I too will not be telling any lawyer jokes. I think of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which is comprised of lawyers, ended the Ku Klux Klan and made a huge dent in hate crimes, by filing lawsuits starting in the 1970's.
Dang, I had a good one, too. ?
Seriously, though, Allyn, excellent analysis. I don't think Twitler gives a d*mn about Stone except for all the dirt he has on him. T. doesn't think twice about discarding anyone who has outlived their usefulness to him. Manafort, prison. Stone, prison. Let's hope he's next.
This may sound crazy, but whenever I think of Trump, I see him on a chess board ruthlessly moving his pawns across the board. But while he is the one playing all the pieces on his side of the board, the other side is being controlled by multiple players with their own individual pieces. Each one comes to the board with their own strengths and weaknesses, and I don't think they are all coordinating with one another, but they share one goal; Attack the great Orange King who is invading their homes. The Democratic candidates, the media (not including Fake Fox News, of course), the Democratic House and Senate, Never Trump Republicans, private citizens that was targeted by Trump, etc.
While Trump has the advantage of controlling all of his pieces (McConnell, the Republican House and Senate, Fox News, his mindless, Satanic followers, etc.), he does not have the intelligence or the restraint of looking ahead into the future. Right now he thinks he can single-handedly wipe out all of his opponents through shear force of will. All he has to do is use his mindless pawns. And if they fall, what does it matter?
Now, I don't expect the pawns to suddenly grow a brain (We know that after three and a half years of cruelty, they are already lost). But because they lack the ability to think independently, they and Trump are gleefully walking into a trap (or multiple traps) by the other side. Trump believes he has the judiciary on the run, and he is using Barr to wipe the pieces off the board. But he is completely ignoring the State Judiciary, who is silently waiting until Trump gets into the wrong place before they pounce. The same hold true for other groups as well.
Eventually, Trump will outplay himself. And then...checkmate.
Personally, I don't care if anyone tells attorney jokes on this site. I hear them all the time, along with women jokes (let's face it, men outnumber women in the legal profession 4 to 1 where I live), along with blonde jokes (yes, I am a natural blonde.)
But seriously, I don't mind so much as long as it is in good fun. Most people appreciate that attorneys are like everyone else. Some are good people, and some are not-so-good people. Most of the time, we are misunderstood, because we work in the legal profession and have been trained to think that way (hence my analysis as to what may be going on behind the scenes for Stone and Trump, as well as Judge Jackson's likely reasoning behind the sentence she imposed.)
I am actually concerned that there may be a few people who believe that attorneys are inherently evil and are already destined for hell simply for being attorneys. Yes, they exist, and yes, I have encountered them. One was a distant family member, too! :P
I can hear my mother's voice saying, 'twas ever thus.
This quote from Dorothy Sayers-"to oppose one class perpetually to another-young against old, manual labor against brain-worker, rich against poor, woman against man, is to split the foundations of the State-and if the cleavage runs too deep, there remains no remedy but force and dictatorship. If you wish to preserve a free democracy, you must base it, not on classes and categories, for this will land you in a totalitarian state, where no one may act of think except as a member of a category. You must base it on the individual Tom, Dick and Harry, and the individual Jack and Jill, in fact, upon you and me."
It unfolded right before us. The rethug's dream.
I'm sure Stone thinks he's being discriminated against for being a rich white guy.
I did not watch last night's rally, but I did catch a few clips online. He was totally deranged last night. I will spare you the summary because if this was anyone other than Twitler we would all be very sad at the public spectacle of a very sick individual.
I do believe that he is quite ill and that his handlers are medicating him as best they can, but the bar of what their interventions are able to achieve is getting lower and lower. If last night was the best he could be....well then the predictions for March certainly seem within reach.